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  • Alternative to Koni's...?

    Hi PP'ers,

    In the coming weeks I'm looking to acquire a 2" lift and a 33" wheel/tyre combo.

    I've posted previously regarding wheels/tyres, and received some great feedback (many thanks to those who contributed). That thread can be reached here.

    From info I've been given and a bit of research, I've decided on the following:
    • 17x8 rims with an offset somewhere between 0 and +15. (Still deciding on style. Want to avoid spacers, and also avoid tyre rub.)
    • 285/70/17 BFG KM2 Tyres (Popular choice, seems to have comparatively low road noise for an aggressive mud tyre?)
    • Adjustable upper control arms (Additional adjustment, clearance, and strength)
    • Rear lower control arms (Additional strength)
    • Flexi flares to protect my rubber when its hangin' right out there! (Keeping it legal...ish)


    Now to get to the point of this thread, I had originally been interested in an 88/90 series Koni setup. However having done some research on here, it seems this setup has a very limited travel length? I can't find the thread now, but I remember reading that Koni's are much more suited if you want to maintain factory ride height. This is not the case for me, as I need the extra height for tyre clearance, so I'm thinking I might have to cross the Koni's off my wish list?

    Billies are the obvious alternative, and I'm well aware of their popularity in the community. A close friend curses his Billies, however he owns a Pajero, so is obviously an idiot anyway. Haha! It does lead me to wonder though, what other equivalent alternatives do I have?

    I'm considering the likes of Kings (shocks, not springs) or Fox, and would like to know if there are many other competitors in this part of the market? As much as I drool every time I look at Icon gear, they are beyond my reach. Kings or Fox are starting to stretch the budget a bit too, but I would be prepared to save for a bit longer if it meant an exceptional performance/reliability gain over Billies. The car is a 2006 4.0L GXL. I've owned it a little over a year, and am planning to keep it for many years to come, so reliability and longevity are essential.

    To put my application into context, the car is my daily drive, so road comfort is important. It gets off the black stuff every month or so (hopefully more often as of next year), and generally only gets put through low to mid difficulty terrain when off road. Lots of my driving on the dirt is done solo, so I'm fairly conservative with how adventurous things get.

    I've been a passenger in other 4x4 vehicles where speed bumps are almost unnoticeable at speeds of 20km/h and above, and decent sized corrugations can only be heard and not felt. That level of plushness is something that seriously appeals to me, however I don't really understand the trade offs for such smoothness, and if said plushness can be achieved with any correctly tuned shock/spring combo?

    As for my setup, some details are listed below:
    • Steel bull bar
    • Winch
    • Dual battery
    • Roof cage
    • Underbody protection
    • Rear bar (not currently fitted, but is on the list for the near future)
    • Side steps (not currently fitted, but is on the list for the near future)


    When we head off road, the following conditions often apply:
    • Roughly 200kg gear in back of car
    • Roughly 100kg gear on roof


    If it counts for anything, on the current setup which is purely OEM, I do notice that when the car is loaded up for a trip, it seems to deliver a much smoother ride than when it is empty. There is much less residual bouncing, and better bump compliance in general. Will I need to make somewhat of a tradeoff to bias for better handling on/off road, or could this be overcome by installing an airbag setup like seen in the Grande? I haven't looked into airbags yet, would I be wasting my time...?

    I'm also wondering if I can get some pointers regarding springs and valving, for whatever I end up choosing. I have very basic knowledge of shock terminology and behavior, and don't really understand how different aspects affect real world handling. I'm a very keen mountain biker, so I understand things like spring rates and compression/rebound dampening, but having 4 wheels and a whole lot of weight seems to make things much more complicated!

    I'm thinking it will be best to purchase everything from the same place, to maximise my chances of a discount. I know Superior Engineering do some packages similar to what I am looking for, but are there any suggestions for alternative suppliers? Even if nothing more than for comparison purposes, I think its always nice to have a few options.

    I know suspension and lifts are a repeat topic on here, but I feel like my research hasn't landed me with enough confidence to make a decision yet.

    Any experience, opinions, or general feedback will be greatly appreciated.

    Cheers,

    Dan
    5T3L7H
    Junior Member
    Last edited by 5T3L7H; 07-12-2016, 04:25 AM.

  • #2
    Hi Dan,

    There won't be much price difference between King, Fox or Icon's, depending on which shocks you end up getting as there are a myriad of configurations that can be ordered for each (eg emulsion, reservoirs, adjusters etc).

    I can only give you my opinion on whats I've used, Koni's are a no no, I've shattered the internals of mine (warranty will be rejected due to topping out) and also know of 1 other Prado with the same issue running a 2 inch lift, Top Performance (Koni distributor) only recommend a 30mm lift with them now rather than 40mm when I purchased them a little over a year ago. Bilsteins (A712/A713) are too soft in both compression and rebound and I've had them leak in under a year and I know of quite a few others with the same issues. Profender adjustable remote reservoirs were good, but proved unreliable with the swivel hose fitting leaking in under a year. You can see why when you disassemble them as there's only 2 tiny o ring seals keeping everyting tight and sealed, any bit of diagonal movement and you'll end up pinching the seals and leak.

    You'll probably find that with Fox or Icon's getting a return phone call or email is like getting blood out of a rock, that was from my perspective as till now I haven't even heard back from either of them. Imagine the back up you'll get considering they don't even want to return calls/emails to sell their gear. If you haven't, consider having a look at Radflo shocks as well, they were one of the other guys that got back via email quickly.

    I'm currently running King front and rears with compression adjusters. Can't fault them so far (will ride heaps better after revalve) except for the fact that you do rub the reservoirs at the back with the wheels when articulating. Can't recommend King Shocks Australia (no affiliation) highly enough as they are prepared to talk you though all the options regarding valving and springs etc and will custom valve to your specifications, in fact they'll build you a shock from scratch to whatever custom length and other specs you want. I've got my rear shocks out at the moment getting revalved, King Shocks Aust organised the courier and are doing the complete job at no cost to myself. Give Brad @ King Shocks a call as he's pretty up front even when talking about the other brands.

    At the end of the day, IMHO and experience, spend as much as you can so you won't have to keep changing because the final bill added up will probably end up the same as buying the best option first up. The poor man pays twice (three even four times) is good analogy.

    Check out Whitey's posts/topics in the suspension database in regards to valving, spring rates and all sorts of other suspension technical data.

    Cheers,
    Sunny

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Sunny,

      Thanks for the incredible feedback, exactly what I was looking for...!

      I share the same view - Buy good quality, look after it, and it will look after you.

      You've been through a pretty big range of shocks, could I trouble you to share some more thoughts on a direct comparison between the Kings and Billies? I suppose it's a safe assumption (I think?) that any "premium" shock will have solid durability and reliability (ie. Kings > Billies ), so I'm mostly interested in hearing more about the handling characteristics. Also interested to know some more about the rubbing, as I'm aiming to avoid any rub at all, if I can help it. Are the reservoirs remote style, or piggyback...? Just trying to paint a mental picture.

      It seems like Kings customer service is pretty top notch, but you would hope so given the price tag that is attached. Shame to hear that Fox and Icons are lacking in this area - That rules them out pretty quickly from my point of view. Not keen on dropping mega bucks, just to be ignored if an issue comes up!

      The Radflo's are a great suggestion as well, one which I hadn't given much consideration. Similar to the other top shelf brands, I see on the Radflo website that they make to order, meaning customisation can happen without too much extra hassle. You mentioned you've made some contact with them, how did the Radflo's stack up in terms of price? Similar to Koni's, or getting into Kings/Icon territory...?

      I've had a look through many of Whitey's posts. In all honesty, I struggle to keep up with most of them... Haha! Extremely knowledgable bloke though, definitely an asset to our community.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hey Dan and Sunny,

        Great discussion you two are having!

        I'll throw my two cents worth into this just to muddle the picture even more!

        Getting suspension right is never as simple as it could be, and there are many factors to consider: i) ride height and suspension travel, ii) shock type (gas, hydraulic, emulsion, foamcell, mono, twin etc.), shock/shaft diameter, valving type and magnitude, fade resistance, iii) coil type and rate, iv) factors related to dynamics, suspension frequency, catching low velocity body roll etc etc etc. Then after considering all of those things there's a massive range of manufacturers to choose from.

        Koni RAIDS (specifically 88-1712 and 90-5404) are ruled out straight away in lifted Prados because of point i), which Sunny has unfortunately found out about in all its gory detail. The RAIDS are the shortest open length of all after market shocks, and will just get topped out to death in lifted geometry. Further, while the 88-1712 valving is reasonable for the front strut, the 90-5404 rear shock fails point ii) as it is valved only for a very soft coil, making it even more useless for a packed up Prado that needs stiff rear coils.

        This is unfortunate, as the RAIDS have an excellent reputation for fade resistance being a large diameter hydraulic shock with large oil volume. I would be trying them if they had long travel versions with better valving. Particularly for the rear of the Prado, which is the most susceptible to poor dynamics, poor valving, poor fade resistance, and the notorious pogo stick dynamics. This uncontrolled coil motion in the rear can be set off by either poor valving (typically not enough rebound), or a poor front:rear suspension frequency ratio (typically meaning front coil rate is too high, rear is too low).

        There are other long travel hydraulic shocks for the rear which match or exceed the performance of the RAIDS. These are made by Tough Dog and Ironman, both of which are foam cell shocks, geometrically identical to a 90 series RAID. They are called foam cell shocks, but they are actually a hydraulic shock. In a Koni, there is air above the oil, it is purely hydraulic. In a Tough Dog or Ironman, that air is replaced by a foam cell (a nitrile type material that is pressurised under nitrogen gas, forcing nitrogen molecules inside the nitrile material). This means the Tough Dog and Ironman shocks actually run cooler than a RAID, as a) they contain more oil, and b) the foam cell acts on the oil in the same manner as a gas/floating piston in a Bilstein. The foam cell prevents cavitation on the trailing side of the piston head as it contracts/expands in volume with changes in oil pressure. As such, the oil always has pressure on it, meaning it is much harder to cavitate and boil.

        Foam cells have copped a bad reputation largely due to competitors (like ARB who were too slow to develop the technology themselves) rubbishing them and making up anecdotal stories about the foam disintegrating. It simply isn't true. If you don't believe that, call Tough Dog or Ironman and ask them about the foam.

        I myself am currently testing Ironman Foamcell Pros on the rear principally to see if they don't fade so badly as some of the twin tube 35mm small bore shocks that fade after about 30min. Even if the foam cell disintegrated I wouldn't care, as I'd run it as a pure hydraulic long travel shock.

        Hydraulics have their place, and they may end up being the most appropriate shock for the rear of the Prado in fade terms. Hydraulics for the rear also have other issues to deal with, linear valving from linear piston heads, longish closed lengths around 380mm (longer than solid coil bind), however these issues can be sorted. I have worked with Ironman to produce a more digressive type of valving from a linear piston head by varying just the shim plates. Hydraulics at these dimensions also run 18mm shafts, much better for the Prado rear which can run up to 1800kg axle weight in a loaded up vehicle.

        Hopefully that gives you a better perspective on Koni and hydraulic shocks.

        Bilsteins are one of the best bang for buck shocks you can buy, they tick almost all of the i) to iv) boxes above. In the front they are brilliant with the correct valving and coil rate, and with the lower front weight they rarely get hot. For the rear I think the 46mm series monotubes struggle a bit, from the perspective of closed length around 380mm for a decent long shock (important for rear droop), and their fade resistance and 14mm shaft diameter. Rear 46mm Bilsteins in the Prado can get extremely hot. I am also working on improving this, as it is possible geometrically to build a piggyback rear shock with 360-630mm lengths, with the gas chamber removed to the piggyback reservoir. This won’t be an inverted shock, it will be a standard (shock body at bottom) geometry with a small piggyback on the front. The piggyback will be a direct tig welded connection at the bottom (not a hose), so it will act like a crossflow reservoir. This will improve both bump out (below solid coil at 370mm) and fade resistance. Ultimately I will build a 60mm version of this monotube piggyback shock. That is what I plan to develop and compare with the big bore twin tube hydraulic and see if it has more fade resistance. I suspect the 60mm piggyback monotube will come out on top.

        Top end manufacturers like Icon, Fox and King have a lot of race pedigree built into their shocks, thicker pistons, thicker shafts, bypass technology, crossflow fin cooled reservoirs, linear and progressive valving options etc. Look at the Trophy Trucks that win the Baja 1000, where the shocks are getting seriously punished with huge Forces over huge jumps, landing 2.5t on up to 34” of travel. These shocks need to absorb these huge Forces and keep on working and not fading for up to 30 continuous hours. King now run 4.5” diameter bypass shocks on these trucks, there is even a company that makes an incredible 5.25” x6 bypass tube shock. These shocks are massive.

        So when King etc. carry this technology into their OEM range of shocks, everything is bigger inside the shock, piston head, rod guide etc. This means very long closed lengths due to thicker parts consuming valuable shaft travel. The closed length of the King for the rear of our Prados is 403mm. Axle-bumpstop contact on the Prado rear is 405mm. This means you will need to drop your bumpstops down a very long way, otherwise you’ll bump out the shock and kill it (even a King). This means a big compromise in bump travel, and you’ll constantly be riding the bumpstops. Similar bumpstop drops are required for instance with long travel rear kits from Metal Tech, who use Icon shocks that run out past 700mm open length. The bumpstop spacers in this kit are 3” thick. While you get fantastic droop and your car looks nicely flexed up, the most common complaint is riding the bumpstops.

        King also typically use linear piston heads, which means a linear F vs v valving curve. This will feel different to a typical digressive curve from a Bilstein for instance.

        So, plenty to think about, but perhaps the most influential point I haven’t discussed is the subjectivity of how the driver feels the suspension. One driver will love linear valving, one will love huge compression, one will refuse to use anything but hydraulic shocks etc etc etc. In this respect, there is no right or wrong with how you setup your suspension, which is really where the picture gets muddled.

        I know what I like, so I can tell you what valving I like, what lengths I use etc., but you may hate it.

        In saying that, valving is in my opinion everything. Even if you’ve selected poor coils for your Prado, you can still get the best out of them by well matched valving. If you think you’ve calculated your front:rear suspension frequency down to 0.00001Hz and you’ve got the wrong valving, you will feel it straight away!

        Many drivers complain about their ride feeling stiff etc., and they think they’ve chosen the wrong coils. This is particularly the case for the rear Prado coils. Most of the time this is because they are running poorly valved shocks, such as 713 Bilsteins etc.

        As an old example, see this thread;

        http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...lstein-revalve

        The valving wasn’t changed by much, around 200N in compression, and around 670N in rebound. However, the difference in ride quality according to the driver was “night and day”.

        Get the valving correct and your Prado will undergo an off road transformation where you can suddenly drive through whoops and corrugations with ease, even better, have this valving well matched to your coils and you’ll suddenly minimise vehicle pitch and the nasty pogo stick dynamics of the rear.

        You might have the front valving and coil rate spot on, but you might have the rear poorly valved. This will upset the whole car, and vice versa, if the front isn’t valved properly, the rear will also become uncontrolled.

        To get it right, you may go through several iterations of suspension setups. You’ll then start refining your valving and paying more attention to your Prado dynamics.

        I don’t keep an allegiance to any particular manufacturer, and I prefer to experiment with what gives the best feeling. This costs money of course! I have Bilsteins again on the front of my Prado (after a long time of not having them) because changing the valve stacks in them is straight forward and I know Bilstein valving for Prados inside out.

        I’m just about to change valve stacks in my rear Ironmans this weekend. I’m changing them to the valving that I know I like, and then I’ll test them for fade resistance.

        Making comparisons between manufacturers is not easy, comparing a Bilstein with a King means you need to know everything about them. Both are fantastic shocks, but I’m not in a hurry to put a King shock on the rear of my Prado, as I know it will never be bump proof. If I had a Trophy Truck, I’d be putting King bypass shocks on it, as the entire truck is built around the suspension geometry.

        We’re not so lucky and are stuck with fixed upper OEM shock mounts which are illegal to modify and/or move. If you could move them, I’d be running Kings.

        I’m working around the geometrical limits of what is legal and physically possible, and I’m sure in the end I’ll have a 60mm monotube crossflow piggyback that I’d be happy to run on my Prado as the best compromise of bump proof 360-630mm touring type lengths, excellent fade resistance and valving that is matched well to my coil rate and my vehicle weight.

        After reading this, ask yourself what you want from your suspension first, and how much you’re prepared to spend to get it. Then your choice of manufacturer should follow. In my head there is no Kings > Billies as you put it above. You can get what you want from a lot of different manufacturers!

        King Shocks here in Australia are immensely helpful. You’ll get the same kind of service for Fox shocks through Buds Customs. Icon I wouldn’t bother with, the only importer is on a lot of black lists. Ironman will give you service above and beyond. Tough Dog will also go out of their way to help you. Bilsteins, call John at Zordos Suspension, you just won’t find better service.

        I’ve written a lot, but hopefully you’ve gained some perspective about what you want!

        Best

        Mark
        Whitey
        Shockie Maker of the Month Award
        Last edited by Whitey; 09-12-2016, 11:53 PM.
        2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

        Comment


        • #5
          I was hoping you might comment, but holy moley Whitey...!? Haha! I'm always amazed by your willingness to share your knowledge. No doubt I speak for all members/readers of the forum when I say "thank you". You really have gone above and beyond, cheers mate.

          Well there's only a couple of posts up, and I already have a lot to think about! A huge thanks to Sunny and Whitey for their input.

          So...
          • Koni's are out, but that was expected - In my case I just can't sacrifice the travel and/or ride height.
          • Icon's are out, not that they were much of a contender in the first place - The bad reputation for service is worrying, particularly for such a high end brand.
          • Kings are out, due to the closed length issues in the rear - Ride plushness is a high priority, and I'd be very disappointed if I was regularly smashing on the bump stops.


          That leaves me with two choices: Go fancy with some Radflo's, or keep it real with some Billies.

          Whitey, you make a good point that any setup will likely take a few tries to get the valving tuned nicely. As you say, you can calculate as much as you want, but at the end of the day it all comes down to personal preference.

          For someone like myself with little knowledge and experience with shock valving, is it something I could tackle myself, or best left to the experts? In the past I've swapped coilovers and have done timing belts (in a WRX), and have replaced dust seals on bike forks, so I'm pretty confident when it comes to "fixing" things. Are there special tools that are needed, or a comprehensive collection of normal tools will do? In terms of the valving process itself, is there some type of reference data, or does it all come down to experience? Is it simply a matter of restacking the shims, or is there more to it?

          My thought now is that whichever avenue I take, I'll likely need to tweak it, at least a little bit. And with that being the case, if I can't do it myself, the level of support (and cost of support) from the supplier will have a big impact on my decision.

          Edit: Just to complicate things further...

          A mate has a Jeep JK, and is running Fox gear in it (he's very happy with it). He mentioned that its common in the Jeep community for people to install hydraulic bump stops. Apparently they make a huge difference during big hits, lessening the harshness of what would otherwise be a solid smack on the rubber stops.

          I can't recall hydraulic bump stops being mentioned in anything I've read...? Seems like a nice addition to me, but surely there's a reason no one has put them on a Prado...? Maybe they'd help accommodate the closed length issue of Kings in the rear...?
          5T3L7H
          Junior Member
          Last edited by 5T3L7H; 09-12-2016, 02:37 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hey Dan,

            Thanks for the kind words! Pradopoint is a fantastic technical forum full of great knowledge and helpful folk.

            Sharing knowledge is what makes a forum great, and suspension is definitely one of those tricky areas where a sales guy will tell you what they think is right, rather than you getting what you want. Far too many crooks in the suspension business who are keen to take your money in my opinion, so the more technical knowledge that is shared the better prepared buyers are!

            Let me say clearly that once you lift your Prado, you'll never get the factory ride feeling back. That "plush ride" you're after may prove more elusive than you think. Once you shift the CG upward everything changes, roll torque increases, rear squats more etc etc., and no amount of suspension tuning will fully counter balance these effects.

            The suspension you end up with in a lifted geometry will be a compromise between on-road and off-road handling. Generally speaking, for better off road performance in what is really a typical short wheel travel 8"/10" Prado, you'll end up with a higher rebound setup and stiffer coils to get the best performance. As such, the Prado will feel stiffer driving on-road around city streets. There's no way around this. If you want to hit the whoops hard, you'll need a higher Force setup...action, reaction, you hit a hard bump that transmits a bucket load of Force into the Prado, then you'll need a bucket load of compression valving to dampen it out.

            Don't take what I've written about King, Fox and Icon shocks the wrong way, you can still run adjustable front struts if you want to. The long closed length in the rear is definitely an issue for me, maybe not for others.

            King, Fox and Icon make fantastic shocks, the engineering behind them is top notch. Long closed lengths (both front and rear, the front is below bump bind) are a fact of life with these shocks due to the over engineered components in them. As I said above, they have their place. Both King and Fox are quite well established with importers here in Australia. Icon has unfortunately fallen into the hands of a disreputable importer. That doesn't mean Icon shocks are bad, just unfortunate who imports them.

            Radflo shocks are distributed by Snake Racing here in Oz, but I can't offer much advice for you here as I don't have any experience with them. I'd advise you to call them up, ask for closed-open lengths, valving Forces and valving type, linear, digressive etc., and how much their rebuild kits are etc. If they're helpful and provide you with the technical information you need, they might end up being a great option for you. If they aren't prepared to give you valving figures, that's when I hang up the phone.

            Have a read of this thread about Radflos;

            https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/new...review.499039/

            If the Oz importer is as helpful as the people on this thread, then Radflo might be a great option for you, assuming lengths and valving are appropriate.

            I will add the caveat that I'm not aware of anyone on PP with Radflo shocks??

            Everything you want to know about Bilsteins I have documented here;

            http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...hs-and-Valving

            I still hold the view that Bilsteins are the best bang for buck shocks you can buy for the Prado.

            You can modify Bilsteins with valving and lengths to your hearts content. There are plenty of options valving and length wise for both front struts and rear shocks. You can buy off the shelf items and bang them in and off you go, no need for changing anything and you'll have a Prado that rips through the tough stuff.

            All of the Oz model Bilsteins for Prados are rebuildable. You can muck around with the valving as much as you want, assuming your wallet allows this.

            You can either pay someone to revalve for you (typically over $200/pair), or you can do it yourself at home.

            If you want to do it at home, you'll need to set yourself up with some custom made equipment. You'll need a hydraulic press and a gas charging rig. Disassembly is quite simple. Reassembly is where it gets tricky. You have two options here; i) the homemade option where the gas chamber is drilled out and a schrader valve is installed in the bottom of the strut/shock. A lot of track racers do this as it makes working on the shocks much simpler, or ii) you go all the way and build a custom made head to regas the shock body. This sounds tricky, but is actually straight forward if you have the equipment. See this video;

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NICWgWGtN0U

            Watch carefully how the floating piston is removed during disassembly, and how the rod guide, piston head/shaft and floating piston are packed into the gas head for reassembly. Typically the gas charge is around 300kPa = 43.5psi in the full voume of the shock body. Then the floating piston is pushed down by the piston head/shaft using the hydraulic press to push all of the gas down to the bottom of the shock behind the floating piston until the pressure is increased to around 180-200psi, or around 20% of the original volume.

            There is nothing stopping you from doing this at home. It's just a matter of money and a little bit of customising. The Accu-Force rig sells for over $3500. I'm betting you could put this together with a basic hydraulic press and a bit of customising for under $500.

            Not everyone likes drilling the shock body and putting in a schrader valve. Either way, you'll need a nitrogen bottle and some gas handling skills and use the basic gas laws to derive the floating piston depth. It's quite simple once you know the dimensions.

            If you have this gear, this will give you complete freedom with revalving. Keep in mind valve shims are cheap, $1 each. The money you spend on a few revalves paying $200 a pop could get you your own regassing rig at home.

            Changing valve stacks is the simplest part, just undo the nut on the end and disassemble. Once you know valve shim diameters and thicknesses, you can look up Bilstein tables for various stack combinations, eg, see p2 here;

            http://www.bilsteinus.com/fileadmin/...Rebuild_01.pdf

            If you get into revalving, and you want to check everything works ok on reassembly, you can get a dyno run done typically for around $50.

            Or you can build your own shock dyno, better still, if you have a spare 10K, you can buy one from Roehrig.

            Support wise for Bilsteins, Sydney Shocks are around an hour down the road from you. The level of support you'll get is a mixed bag depending on who picks up the phone on the sales desk. I've found an equal mixture of paranoia and freedom of information. As such I prefer to remain independent and do my own thing. I've also grown tired of the woefully technically deficient 712/713 suggestion anytime a Prado is mentioned. Pradopoint is a very long way ahead of Sydney Shocks in what people have tried and are running.

            Regarding the hydraulic bumpstops, or any after market bumpstop for that matter, if they aren't set up properly then bad things like this can happen;

            http://www.fjcc.com.au/f36/superbump...-details-1413/

            I personally prefer to keep the OEM bumpstops and make sure I've got the geometry correct in my shocks first. If you don't know the geometrical limits of your suspension down to the mm, then you shouldn't be playing with bumpstops.

            Yes you can use hydraulic bumps in the rear with longer closed length Kings, just be prepared to lose some bump travel.

            Hope this gives you a better idea of what you can do when it comes to valving playtime!

            Best

            Mark
            2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

            Comment


            • #7
              So it looks like the novice 4wdriver will have a great deal of difficulty other than when in the drivers seat and "feeling " the difference after an upgrade. As long as he chooses his supplier right he should have a dependable if not middle of the road setup. Shops like ARB, TJM or Superior Engineering to name a few, with off the shelf gear should be OK? Providing they(the supplier) ask the right questions about bullbars, dual batteries, rear drawers etc. I mention these to get your take on these types of setups. Next......
              Do the remote canister setups get fade? Or do they just last longer before fading due to the extra oil capacity?
              And to finish off I have an 80 series T/D with a 2" lift and the 2006 Prado Grande almost feels as tall to get into as the 80 series. It seems they sit about the same height so a 2" lift on the Prado would make this extremely high? Any comments or not will be gratefully read and re-read. I hope this all makes sense....
              Cheers Brian. 2006 Grande D4D

              Comment


              • #8
                Hey Brian,

                I personally wouldn't go shopping at ARB, TJM or Superior Engineering for shock absorbers. That's my personal preference, there are plenty of people who've purchased their gear who are happy. Horses for courses.

                All shocks fade, and I mean all shocks. The reservoir means it will take longer to heat up and you can drive longer. These days the oils are getting better and better, meaning you can run high oil volume shocks at hotter temperatures for longer. Eventually you will cook the oil though.

                Can't help you with your lift comparison on the 80, but a 2" lift on the Prado is pretty standard fare these days, nothing really high about it!

                Best

                Mark
                2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks for your reply Mark. And I was forgetting the lift was to fit bigger rubber. Also good
                  Cheers Brian. 2006 Grande D4D

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    PS. Sorry just caught up with the other thread where I had asked the same thing. Getting old
                    Cheers Brian. 2006 Grande D4D

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hey Dan

                      if you want to know things about Kings give me a call
                      i have them on my car and so far have never got close to bottoming them out
                      with the lift for prado 120 i have 800mm on the front ( includes winch, bar, belly plates etc )
                      in the rear it comes down to springs i have King springs which were ordered with + 50mm on top of the 50mm lift to combat the constant weight in the rear
                      and i still needed to add air bags for when i tow the van rear height is around 840mm

                      i may be selling my set shortly to try their new version

                      ( i have raced my off road Pro buggy for 10 yrs with Kings and have done less work to them than i have to Fox on other cars i service )
                      i am a King Shock Dealer in South Australia
                      2008 Dune D4D manual GXL update - with lots of fruit !! + Roma Razorback Off Road Van

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hey Razorback,

                        Good point you raise there in never bottoming out with the Kings in the rear!

                        I've always been a bit suspicious about that very long 403mm closed length that King quote, so I asked Sunny a few days ago to measure his shocks carefully (he's getting his rears revalved at King at the moment).

                        I'd still be surprised if it really was 403mm, as it is right on axle-bumpstop touching on the 120 Prado at 405mm. King use this same rear OEM shock in a bucket load of FJ's (identical rear geometry to the 120/150) in the US, so I'm sure there would be some complaints in the blue room about bump outs on rear Kings if that were the case!

                        If you get a chance, could you measure your rear shock lengths??

                        Best

                        Mark
                        2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hey Mark
                          haven't had a chance to measure them, i just know by the dirty/clean marks on the shafts i am still 30mm from bottoming them out

                          James
                          2008 Dune D4D manual GXL update - with lots of fruit !! + Roma Razorback Off Road Van

                          Comment

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