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  • #16
    The chassis, body are big conductors but the question is the connections to them. If the connectors get loose or corroded then current flow is compromised. I always run both conductors for anything with a decent supply up front.
    My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic

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    • #17
      Originally posted by brogers View Post
      Sorry LeighW, I'm not sure I know what you mean....but honestly, would love to hear your thoughts...am I right in saying that you would run both a positive and negative cable and not use the chassis as the earth, or negative....because I did run both positive and negative cables in my previous Prado...and I know a lot of people do. I personally haven't sen a set up with just a positive cable, and them a couple of short earthing cables to the chassis.

      My mates a sparky and when we did mine he used the chassis but we used I think 4 or 6b&s and put a exrta earth from body to chassis and an extra earth from main battery to chassis.
      His way of thinking and what he has learned is the car is the best earth with least ristricted but as said before they must be good connections or you'll create all sorts of funny dramas
      Arb colour code deluxe bar, safari snorkel, lightforce venom HID's, GME uhf remote face, redarc tow pro, redarc bcdc 1240, pioneer platform, 40" curved light bar, dual battery, 3" SS exhaust, EGR mod, trans cooler upgrade, provent catch can, scangauge 2, diesel care secondary fuel filter, Tin's bash plates and actuator gaurd, 2in Bilstien and kings lift,

      Comment


      • #18
        No professional installer will use the body as an earth return.

        This is simply asking for trouble and as there is no way to test if the bodywork and/or chassis is a good earth return, just run two cables, one for positive and an equal or larger one for the earth return and you remove a bucket load of potential problems.

        Unless you know exactly what you are doing, even the chassis in many new vehicles can not be relied on to be a good earth return.

        And the biggest problem with using bodywork or the chassis and it turns out not to be a good earth, is that you usually don’t find out you have a problem until you are travelling and you find your batteries are not charging.

        If you run two cables and you have a problem, it is very simple to find and fix.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by drivesafe View Post

          one for positive and an equal or larger one for the earth return

          Hi drivesafe,

          I have installed my dual batt system using 16mm2 twin core back to the batt and it seems to be working well. However as a bit of a layman I am interested to know why you would run a "larger one" for earth? In my mind I would have thought it more critical to run a larger positive if choosing between the two?

          LSki
          2016 Toyota Prado GXL auto. ARB deluxe bar, Rock Armor side steps, 9in Penetrator LED spotties (30,000LM), Uniden 8060 UHF, Bilstein/Dobinson 2in lift, 265/70/17 Mickey Thompson ATZ P3's, Safari snorkel, Dual battery system, ARB onboard compressor, Custom rear false floor, Kaon bash plates, Ext. diff/gearbox breathers, Provent 200, Wynnum tow bar, Roadsafe tow points, Phillips crystalvision bulbs, tint, Rhino rack platform.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by drivesafe View Post
            No professional installer will use the body as an earth return.
            Really, are you sure you want to make a statement like this??

            There are many professional installers that will use the body as a earth, professional installers that do vehicle fit outs for many large companies and government departments use the body or chassis as earth return circuits.

            I was just offering another point of view, I don't care what other people want to do, just want people to be aware there is actually nothing wrong with using the body if it is done correctly. That is the cable lug bolted to a sanded metal surface tightly with a spring and flat washer used then covered with a terminal protectant of some type, either spray on or paint on. Never just drive a self tepping screw into sheet metal and think it will be fine. I usually try and find an unused thread from factory to use. Also the body earth needs to be suitably upgraded. Most people forget this step but is is just as important as the other end.

            At the end of the day do what you want, but don't make statements that aren't true and mislead people. If you are unsure and want to run a full negative cable that's fine, but if you want to run your negative side as an earth return that is also more than except able.

            Cheers,
            Andy
            [LEFT]Silver 150 Facelift
            TJM Bullbar, Lightforce Genisis Spots, Dual Battery System with bits from everyone, Powerful 4x4 slider/steps, Kaymar rear bar, "Genuine" Roof Racks, MSA Seatcovers, Dashmat, Tint, LED Interior Globes, Bridgestone D697s [/LEFT]

            Comment


            • #21
              Agree with drivesafe, the fact that others use the body as an earth return doesn't make it a good idea!

              Back in the good old days it was common to use earth returns which resulted in all sorts of strange faults and affects due to poor earthing, these days manufacturers aim for reliability, manufacturers are also always looking for ways to save money, copper cost money, if it wasn't required they wouldn't be using earth looms.

              Modern cars are spot welded and glued together, they don't make good conductors,
              then there's the small issue of stray currents, stray currents can corrode cooling systems,
              radiators heater cores in weeks, differences in potentials of panels can lead to corrosion etc.

              It is not unknown for brake and fuel lines to have been found melted due to there becoming
              earth returns when accessories have been installed using bad wiring pratices.

              It is always a very good idea to run both battery and earth the body work is not designed
              to be an earth return.

              Still as you say, everyone to there own.
              LeighW
              Avid PP Poster!
              Last edited by LeighW; 25-02-2016, 09:36 AM.
              HKB Electronics, manufacturer of the Alternator Voltage Booster, Silver 2008 D4D,Lifted,Underbody protection, Alternator Voltage Booster, Tiger Z winch, Lightforce DL, Air Horns, Tanami Drawers, Drop down fridge slide, Outback cargo barriers, Rotronics dual Battery system, Polaris GPS, HF/UHF/VHF, Radio speaker combiner, Long ranger water tank, Diff breathers, Inverter, Snorkel and others

              Comment


              • #22
                Hi Leigh and Drivesafe,

                When running a separate cable for the negative (or earth) line do you then connect it to the body at both ends? Or leave it floating at one or both ends?

                Cheers
                Prone
                2018 Prado 150 VX Auto

                Comment


                • #23
                  Was just about to pull the trigger and buy all the bits and then I thought that I had better just double check everything. I then noticed that the minimum charging voltage for the optima is 13.8V which is exactly what my alternator is putting out which leaves absolutely bugger all tolerance. Am I better off going down the dc-dc battery charger path? If I don't go down the charger path and stay with the isolator, will having such a low voltage mean my battery will take forever to charge and will end up relying on the solar panels to get a charge?

                  From optima web site:

                  Recommended Charging Information
                  Alternator: 13.65 to 15.0 volts
                  Battery Charger: 13.8 to 15.0 volts; 10 amps maximum; 6-12 hours approximate
                  Float Charge: 13.2 to 13.8 volts; 1 amp maximum; (indefinite time at lower voltages)
                  Rapid Recharge (Constant voltage charger): Maximum voltage 15.6 volts. No current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). Charge until current drops below 1 amp
                  Cyclic or Series String Applications::
                  14.7 volts. No current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). When current falls below 1 amp, finish with 2 amp constant current for 1 hour.
                  All limits must be strictly adhered to.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Drivesafe is better quailified to answer the Optima question as he would have
                    had a lot more exposure to them than I have, I have one in my car as a cranker
                    but I have a higher charge voltage. It would still charge rapidly at 13.8V but not reach 100% SOC, a regular charge with a standard alone charger woud address that issue.

                    The Optima specs leave a bit to be desired as they contractic themselves, the:

                    "Battery Charger: 13.8 to 15.0 volts; 10 amps maximum; 6-12 hours approximate"

                    contradicts the :

                    "Float Charge: 13.2 to 13.8 volts; 1 amp maximum; (indefinite time at lower voltages)
                    Rapid Recharge (Constant voltage charger): Maximum voltage 15.6 volts. No current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). Charge until current drops below 1 amp
                    Cyclic or Series String Applications::
                    14.7 volts. No current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). When current falls below 1 amp, finish with 2 amp constant current for 1 hour.
                    All limits must be strictly adhered to."

                    I would assume the 10 amps maximum is more about the upper voltage limit on slow charge, ie if the Optima is near 100% SOC and you continue to charge it at 10A it will start to vent, I have seen them do this on chargers with a restore function.


                    I would run from the negative battery terminal to the aux negative and then to a body earth point. Same for an accessory fuse box, from the aux negative to the fuse box
                    earth busbar then to a body earth point if possible.
                    LeighW
                    Avid PP Poster!
                    Last edited by LeighW; 25-02-2016, 10:53 AM.
                    HKB Electronics, manufacturer of the Alternator Voltage Booster, Silver 2008 D4D,Lifted,Underbody protection, Alternator Voltage Booster, Tiger Z winch, Lightforce DL, Air Horns, Tanami Drawers, Drop down fridge slide, Outback cargo barriers, Rotronics dual Battery system, Polaris GPS, HF/UHF/VHF, Radio speaker combiner, Long ranger water tank, Diff breathers, Inverter, Snorkel and others

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by LeighW View Post
                      Agree with drivesafe, the fact that others use the body as an earth return doesn't make it a good idea!

                      Back in the good old days it was common to use earth returns which resulted in all sorts of strange faults and affects due to poor earthing, these days manufacturers aim for reliability, manufacturers are also always looking for ways to save money, copper cost money, if it wasn't required they wouldn't be using earth looms.

                      Modern cars are spot welded and glued together, they don't make good conductors,
                      then there's the small issue of stray currents, stray currents can corrode cooling systems,
                      radiators heater cores in weeks, differences in potentials of panels can lead to corrosion etc.

                      It is not unknown for brake and fuel lines to have been found melted due to there becoming
                      earth returns when accessories have been installed using bad wiring pratices.

                      It is always a very good idea to run both battery and earth the body work is not designed
                      to be an earth return.

                      Still as you say, everyone to there own.
                      Hmmmm..... We're on a Prado forum, so I'll use a 1KD 150 as an example. The tail lights and rear electrical accessories are run to a body earth point in the rear, there are two body earth points under the bonnet and the dash loom goes too body earth point behind the kick panels. There is two wires coming off the factory negative terminal, one going to a body earth point (which no other wires are bolted to) and the other goes to the engine block (once again with no other wires). Every factory electrical component either uses a portion of the body or engine as their earth return or negative circuit.

                      Copper does cost money, it also adds weight so why wouldn't you want to use the smallest amount that remains effective? This goes for both the factory and any professional installer.

                      As for corrosion, it is an insufficient earth return circuit that causes that in most cases, that is why it is important to upgrade the cabling from the body to the batteries to a suitable size. Electrolysis is what causes the corrosion that you are referring to (as you know) and it is from current travelling through the cooling system, caused by a potential difference between the cooling system components (attached to the body and the engine). Adequate earths to both the body and engine will prevent this from happening.

                      I would love to know how much current you are drawing to melt a fuel or brake pipe? What battery can supply this current without overheating itself? What charging system can keep up with this current draw? How is the current directed through the brake pipe (was the earth cable lug bolted to the brake pipe clamp)? Electrons flow through the path of least resistance, you would have to have to be flowing a lot of electrons before that became the path of least resistance to the alternator.

                      Anyway, that's the last I'll say as I don't want this to turn into a slanging match, just presenting facts and showing a different method to achieve the same outcome, and that is cold beer at the end of a day 4wding.
                      [LEFT]Silver 150 Facelift
                      TJM Bullbar, Lightforce Genisis Spots, Dual Battery System with bits from everyone, Powerful 4x4 slider/steps, Kaymar rear bar, "Genuine" Roof Racks, MSA Seatcovers, Dashmat, Tint, LED Interior Globes, Bridgestone D697s [/LEFT]

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        You'll also note if you look at the wiring schematics they show all electrical devices being connected to their appropriate earth points in the earth loom. You'll find if you look at that earth point in the rear that it will also have the earth loom connected to it.

                        https://www.hkbelect.com/uploads/pro...th%20point.gif

                        Brake lines, fuel lines are tubes, not solid copper and your assuming there is another earth return to share the current. In the cases quoted devices were grounded to metal work that was only grounded through the lines, it was assumed the body work would make a good conductor, it didn't!

                        Yes corrosion caused by stray currents, stray currents are usually caused by people
                        using the chassis/body work as an earth return!

                        The body is earthed to prevent difference of potentials and stray currents occurring, not to allow it to be used as an earth return. Earthing the body also allows it to act as an earth screen to reduce RF problems.

                        As I wrote if it was ok to use the body as a conductor you wouldn't have the earth loom!

                        Enough said if you wish to use the cars metal work as a conductor to save a few dollars then whatever floats your boat, I prefer to pay a bit more and do it right the first time for maximum reliability and to avoid possible hassles later.
                        Attached Files
                        LeighW
                        Avid PP Poster!
                        Last edited by LeighW; 25-02-2016, 05:28 PM.
                        HKB Electronics, manufacturer of the Alternator Voltage Booster, Silver 2008 D4D,Lifted,Underbody protection, Alternator Voltage Booster, Tiger Z winch, Lightforce DL, Air Horns, Tanami Drawers, Drop down fridge slide, Outback cargo barriers, Rotronics dual Battery system, Polaris GPS, HF/UHF/VHF, Radio speaker combiner, Long ranger water tank, Diff breathers, Inverter, Snorkel and others

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by AussieAndy View Post
                          Hmmmm..... We're on a Prado forum, so I'll use a 1KD 150 as an example. The tail lights and rear electrical accessories are run to a body earth point in the rear, there are two body earth points under the bonnet and the dash loom goes too body earth point behind the kick panels. There is two wires coming off the factory negative terminal, one going to a body earth point (which no other wires are bolted to) and the other goes to the engine block (once again with no other wires). Every factory electrical component either uses a portion of the body or engine as their earth return or negative circuit.

                          Copper does cost money, it also adds weight so why wouldn't you want to use the smallest amount that remains effective? This goes for both the factory and any professional installer.

                          As for corrosion, it is an insufficient earth return circuit that causes that in most cases, that is why it is important to upgrade the cabling from the body to the batteries to a suitable size. Electrolysis is what causes the corrosion that you are referring to (as you know) and it is from current travelling through the cooling system, caused by a potential difference between the cooling system components (attached to the body and the engine). Adequate earths to both the body and engine will prevent this from happening.

                          I would love to know how much current you are drawing to melt a fuel or brake pipe? What battery can supply this current without overheating itself? What charging system can keep up with this current draw? How is the current directed through the brake pipe (was the earth cable lug bolted to the brake pipe clamp)? Electrons flow through the path of least resistance, you would have to have to be flowing a lot of electrons before that became the path of least resistance to the alternator.

                          Anyway, that's the last I'll say as I don't want this to turn into a slanging match, just presenting facts and showing a different method to achieve the same outcome, and that is cold beer at the end of a day 4wding.
                          👏👏👏👏 well said
                          Arb colour code deluxe bar, safari snorkel, lightforce venom HID's, GME uhf remote face, redarc tow pro, redarc bcdc 1240, pioneer platform, 40" curved light bar, dual battery, 3" SS exhaust, EGR mod, trans cooler upgrade, provent catch can, scangauge 2, diesel care secondary fuel filter, Tin's bash plates and actuator gaurd, 2in Bilstien and kings lift,

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            This thread is getting off topic again...


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by AussieAndy View Post
                              At the end of the day do what you want, but don't make statements that aren't true and mislead people If you are unsure and want to run a full negative cable that's fine, but if you want to run your negative side as an earth return that is also more than except able.
                              The only one misleading anybody is yourself.

                              You are talking about manufacturer's earth points designed to carry no more than about 10 amps.

                              This thread is about an auxiliary battery set up where currents can easily exceed 60+ amps.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by BenB View Post
                                I then noticed that the minimum charging voltage for the optima is 13.8V which is exactly what my alternator is putting out which leaves absolutely bugger all tolerance.
                                Hi BenB, you can fully charge all lead acid batteries with a charge voltage of just 13.0v. But you need a long charge time.

                                For example, somewhere on the Fullrive battery site ( an excellent site for anyone wishing to learn about batteries ), there is a graph that show how long it takes to charge their batteries using different charge voltage.

                                It shows you can full charge their batteries with as little as 13.0v BUT it will take 30 hours to fully charge a discharged battery.

                                If you look at the Optima web site is states that a Yellowtop battery can be fully charge from an alternator with as low as 13.5v.

                                This voltage relates to being able to charge the battery in a reasonable time frame.

                                Now you posted that your alternator operates at 13.8v, but lets assume it is running at 13.5v. You are still going to recharge an Optima in a shorter time with a charge voltage of 13.5v than what even 40 DC/DC device could do.

                                The reason is that a 40 DC/DC device would start charging a flat Optima battery at a much lower VOLTAGE.

                                Whereas because your alternator has a much MUCH larger current capacity, the Optima will be charged at 13.5v from the getgo, and this is because your alternator will not only be charging at 13.5v but will be supplying upwards of 60+ amp.

                                The only limiting factor is the amount of current available from your alternator.

                                This means the Optima will reach a near fully charged state in a shorter drive time.

                                Comment

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