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Lift vs Droop for various open length struts on Prado 120 IFS

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  • #16
    Hey tin,

    You're comparing the pre-loaded assembled strut lengths with two different types of coils (one looks like a factory coil, the blue one is likely a taller free height), not the length of the struts with the coils out. The 712 strut is definitely 553mm open length, almost the same length as a standard 555mm 150 series factory strut.

    I think if you put that assembled Bilstein strut in, it just won't sit as proud out the top of the strut tower, and you'll get more lift from the taller blue coil.

    Most after market struts for 150's run a closed length around 433mm, which is almost the same as the factory closed length of 432mm.

    Best

    Mark
    2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Tin175 View Post
      Just put together some Bilstien struts and I just discovered that not all strut tops are made the same.

      I bought a set of second hand struts and springs and assembled them with some aftermarket strut tops. The A712 and standard 150 strut have pretty much the same open length. I put it up against the standard strut and I my open length is 20mm longer?????




      The aftermarket top hat is not as "deep" as the factory one and essentially lowers the strut 20mm. This is like using 20mm of strut spacers. This now gives me a open length of about 570mm which is good. However I am concerned that the effective closed length is now 20mm longer which may mean the shock will bottom out before the bump stop.

      Does anyone know the safe maximum closed length for a 150 Prado? Anyway, I'll be doing some measuring open and closed travel when the strut is out just to be sure.

      I checked the label on the strut top and it definitely says for Prado 120/150.
      That 150 Series Strut top hat looks exactly like an FJ Cruiser or KUN26R top hat.

      Regards, Jason.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Whitey View Post
        Hey tin,

        You're comparing the pre-loaded assembled strut lengths with two different types of coils (one looks like a factory coil, the blue one is likely a taller free height), not the length of the struts with the coils out. The 712 strut is definitely 553mm open length, almost the same length as a standard 555mm 150 series factory strut.

        I think if you put that assembled Bilstein strut in, it just won't sit as proud out the top of the strut tower, and you'll get more lift from the taller blue coil.

        Most after market struts for 150's run a closed length around 433mm, which is almost the same as the factory closed length of 432mm.

        Best

        Mark
        Hi Mark,

        I put the factory coil and the Lovells TFR-118HD next to each other an they are pretty much the same free length. The Coils are second hand so must have sagged a bit as according to the database as they are supposed to be 12mm longer than the stock springs.

        I agree that the length of the 712 strut and the factory strut are about the same. It is that assembled dimensions of the strut that will directly affect droop, travel and lift.

        The top hat I got is not the same as the factory one and I'm quite liking them now as they are giving me more droop whilst maintaining lift. The new top hat is 20mm shallower which when installed effectively makes the distance from under the strut tower to the lower pivot, 20mm longer, ie approx 570mm long. If I had used the old top hats this measurement would be about 550mm. Also the shallower stut top puts 20mm less preload on the springs which offsets the effect of the 20mm longer open strut assembly length. So I get more total droop without gaining lift.

        Because the new top hat moves the shock down in the strut assembly by 20mm, I was concerned that the shock would bottom out at full bump compression. I took the spring out and installed the strut and then jacked up the arm until weight of the car was on the bump stop. I had marked the closed position of the shock to see how much travel I had left. I was happy to see that I had another 20mm before bottoming out the shock.

        I'm pretty happy with the setup now. Here are the facts and figures.
        Prado 150
        712 Bilstein front struts, bottom circlip
        Lovells TFR-118HD
        Roadsafe HD top hats for Prado 120/150
        Height at rest. 790 (40mm lift)
        Full droop extension 885
        Droop 885-790 = 95mm


        Comment


        • #19
          Hey tin,

          Nice work, and very nice droop!

          The normal closed length of the 712 strut is 427mm, so if your after market strut cap is lowering by 20mm, this would put the effective closed length around 447mm, which if you check from my thread on control arm-bumpstop separation plot;

          http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...-Prado-120-IFS

          ...you'll see that with the weight of the car on the bumpstop, it's around 467mm, which gives you your 20mm safety margin!

          Could you post a photo of your after market strut cap, or a url link?

          Best

          Mark
          2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

          Comment


          • #20
            This is the actual link to the ones I purchase. You can't really tell from their pictures but the strut top is shallower than the OEM ones.

            http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/181594834...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

            This is the best photo I have to show the difference in the top strut.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Whitey View Post
              Hey tin,

              Nice work, and very nice droop!

              The normal closed length of the 712 strut is 427mm, so if your after market strut cap is lowering by 20mm, this would put the effective closed length around 447mm, which if you check from my thread on control arm-bumpstop separation plot;

              http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...-Prado-120-IFS

              ...you'll see that with the weight of the car on the bumpstop, it's around 467mm, which gives you your 20mm safety margin!

              Could you post a photo of your after market strut cap, or a url link?

              Best

              Mark
              Hi Mark,

              I did see your thread about the bump stop separation and closed lengths. I remember seeing the 467mm length to bump stop so was happy to try a set of 712 second hand I got at a good price.

              These 712 assembled struts are still about 5mm shorter than the Profenders I took out so I may consider putting some 5 or 6mm strut spacers under the towers to give me some extra lift while still maintaining droop.

              Comment


              • #22
                Stock 120 strut length is 540mm
                Stock 150 strut length is 550mm

                IMO you don't want much more, there's no advantage & you can start putting your c/v at risk.

                Jacking the vehicle up is not necessarily a satisfactory test for closed travel. If you stay on the black top & mainly touring & get lucky you will never have a problem.
                To test it properly it needs to be compressed to the bump stops. When your on the tracks & flexed up or bouncing over some sand dunes this is where you can be regularly be hitting into the bump stops & you have all weight on 2 wheels plus some with momentum of bounce.
                As I said you can get lucky, but if you not you could slightly bend strut causing side wear.
                Or collapse the strut all together, that is the extreme.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Whitey View Post
                  Hey Rusty,

                  That's interesting, maybe the higher spring rate (660lb/in) King coils mask the topping out a bit. My Ridepro coils are 612lb/in, and have sagged at least 2mm and have prolly lost some spring rate as well.

                  With steel bar, winch and secondary battery on standard kings, I'm guessing you're sitting around 0.8-1" lift and maybe 75mm droop.

                  The two points on the 712 line are for a factory vehicle with no accessories, bullbar came later. I'm down to around 1" lift now with 75mm droop with an ARB deluxe bar.

                  Be interesting to hear your lift and droop figures!

                  Best

                  Mark
                  Finally measured the car the other week.

                  Standing height from rim base to mudguard of 778 and full droop 860mm.
                  08 VX D4D, Lift, Safari Snorkle, Trailblazer Fridge, Custom Storeage System, BFG, ARB Safari Bar, Wife, Kids, Codan NGT HF Radio, Debt.
                  06 100 Series Sahara, Bilteins, Kings, Beaudesert 3", Diff drop, Unichip Q4, Safari Intercooler, EGR delete, 20ft Bushtracker, Codan Envoy more coming.
                  Sometimes i wake up Grumpy, most times i leave her sleep.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Hey all,

                    I updated the plot in post #1 today after revising the data, and finally getting a few figures for OEM droop. The 120 Prado has around 95mm of droop with the OEM strut/coil.

                    You can also see more clearly how the 88-1712 RAID isn't really any better than the OEM strut in lift/droop terms, and should only be used in moderate lifts.

                    The single black data point on the OEM line is from somebody who used King coils in their Grande but kept their TEMS OEM struts which are 540mm open.

                    This plot also shows clearly that there isn't really much point in lifting the front end beyond a 2" lift with a 570mm open length strut, as you will just lose droop. Around 800mm ride height is the real sweet spot for the IFS, and this applies for both the 120 and 150.

                    Best

                    Mark
                    2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Hey all,

                      I wanted to clarify for readers of this thread that there is NO difference in the height of OEM strut caps between 120 and 150 Prados.

                      It is only the after market 120/150 strut cap by Roadsafe that sits lower than OEM.

                      Another point to note: when you get after market suspension installed, most fitters will re-use the OEM strut caps, but they may use the after market bushes that came with the new struts. The after market bushes use a steel crush tube and can be considerably thicker than the OEM bush, by up to 10mm.

                      This means that even if you re-use your OEM strut caps, you may end up with after market bushes which lower the strut down by ca. 10mm. If you are running a long strut on the 120, eg. 570mm, then the combination of after market bush AND shroud spacer means you can effectively lower by up to 20mm, putting you in danger of binding your CV if you run a long open length strut.

                      This means we really need the CV bind open length checked carefully against the boss of the strut tower, rather than a variable bottom washer position.

                      I will make such a measurement soon!

                      Best

                      Mark
                      2006 GXL petrol auto. ARB deluxe bar x3 HID IPF's, ARB alloy roofrack, ARB awning, BFG A/T, Safari snorkel, Piranha breathers, Pacemaker extractors, custom Ironman 45710FE 436-569mm with Dobinsons 350, custom Ironman 45682FE 383-618mm with Dobinsons 487, Firestone kevlar 60psi airbags, 30mm extended Roadsafe links, AMTS bashplate and recovery points, ABR Flyer with Powersonic AGM.

                      Comment

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