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  • #46
    Just wondering what, if any, are the issues with a traditional "jump start", should the need arise? And would an already fitted Redarc BCDC 1220 charger be suitable for charging requirements?

    Cheers,
    Dusty

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    • #47
      I can't see any issues with jump starting - the LiFePO4 is happy to produce starting currents and otherwise will behave exactly as a lead-acid battery would. The same applies whether jumping to or from (if you see what I mean) the LiFePO4.

      As long as the BCDC is set to it's Gel/AGM setting it will work perfectly. I'm looking at the BCDC1225LV because I want the MPPT solar option as well, and I've been told it works better with the low voltage Prado 150 electrics, though I have yet to finalise that!

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      • #48
        Thanks zzsstt, I'm a bit of a "12v tard" and am grateful for the advice

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Bear63 View Post
          How do they keep the cells balanced? as this is usually required with this type of battery or is it built in
          Cell balancing is not really required when only 4 small cells are involved. They are balanced/matched at the time of manufacture of the 12v unit and will stay that way (within practical tolerances) for the life of the unit. However if multiple small 12v units are connected together to form a 24/36/48V bank then a battery management system is required to keep the cells balanced, though such a unit is very simple and costs only a few $. Larger multi-cell systems require more intensive management!

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          • #50
            A question for someone who may have some idea of what sort of battery monitoring a Toyota does, if any, be for the vehicle starts.

            The reason I ask, most vehicle, even when they have an initial high boost charge voltage and then settle down to a much lower constant operating voltage are still basically a dumb charging system.

            By DUMB, I mean the vehicle does not actually monitor the battery, it just gives a preliminary high boost charge and then drops the voltage based on a time line, not on whether the battery needs that given amount of time at high voltage.

            I am almost positive that Toyotas use the dumb system and as such, using a lithium battery will not pose any problems for the ECU.

            But there are now a number of makes that have Smart battery monitoring, a BMS, and this may pose problems where the BMS tests the battery just after starting the motor.

            If this tests results in a 13.2v reading, the BMS is could incorrectly see the battery as being fully charged and not boost the voltage.

            Anyway, it will be interesting to see some feedback once a few of you try lithium cranking batteries.

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            • #51
              Sorry double post
              drivesafe
              Senior Member
              Last edited by drivesafe; 22-11-2012, 09:52 AM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Historically most cars have had very minimal or no charge monitoring at all, they simply produce whatever voltage the alternator throws out and largely rely on the battery to cope! The Prado 150 cuts its alternator output to 13.5V when the engine is hot.

                In fact this should not be an issue for LiFePO4 because it will not be damaged by undercharging like a lead-acid battery will. So never reaching full charge is not an issue. Equally because LeFePO4 will happily tolerate 80%DOD, losing a small amount of capacity by undercharging is not a drama - it will still have far greater capacity than an equally rated lead battery.

                It would be interesting to see the specs for one of these BMS style vehicles, because they would be very battery specific unless they were programmable. Flooded batteries requires a higher charging voltage than AGM/gel, and calcium batteries require higher again. So replacing the factory battery with anything else could create problems!

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                • #53
                  Hi z and I suspect the Toyota voltage is as much time based as it is temperature controlled and the voltage never gets much over 14.2v. As such it shouldn’t be a problem for lithium batteries.

                  But a number of vehicles with BMS are battery specific and because most vehicles use Calcium/Calcium cranking batteries, the few makes that I have come across with full on BMS operation are charging batteries as high as 15.5v

                  This could pose a problem for both the vehicle and the lithium battery.

                  On the other hand, there are a few vehicles, like the Ford Ranger, where charging any battery is a potential problem because of the low operating voltage, which can be down to 12.5v.

                  BMW is in a similar situation.

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                  • #54
                    I suspect you are correct about Toyota's "when the engine is hot" statement, but you never know!

                    A high charging voltage may not be an issue for lithium, there is evidence to suggest that charging voltage can go quite high without damage, as long as charging is stopped when the battery is at capacity. High charging currents far beyond the levels which a lead-acid battery will tolerate are equally OK. The resistance of a lithium battery rises quite steeply as it nears 100% SOC, so for a fixed charging voltage the current drops away. As long as the BMS or charger can react to this and reduce the voltage there is no problem. The problems arise when low quality chargers do not treat the falling current as a sign to stop charging (or to drop to float voltage) and keep a high voltage pushing the battery beyond its capacity.

                    I would guess that the risk of overcharging in a modern vehicle would be minimal. It is possible, as you stated above, that a BMS would mistakenly sense the battery as being charged if it checked the voltage and dropped straight to float voltage when it "saw" >13V at the terminals. To be honest, and I'm only guessing here, I would doubt that even BMW would be that complex in their battery management, certainly I can't recall seeing any battery charger that worked that way. Cheap chargers simply push until they cannot push any more (fixed voltage), whilst more complex ones push until they detect that the current has fallen to a preset limit and then drop to a float voltage (or 3 stage bulk-absorb-float). I would imagine, though again I do not know for certain, that both BMW and Ford follow the latter path in their more advanced vehicles.

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                    • #55
                      Double post. There's something very wrong with the "quick reply" function on this forum. That was the first time I used it and it acted very strangely!
                      zzsstt
                      Junior Member
                      Last edited by zzsstt; 22-11-2012, 12:30 PM. Reason: Double post

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by stevensr34 View Post
                        Sorry, but from what I have read, and I own a LiFePO4 car battery (do you?) - you are "mistaken"
                        Sorry for reanimating an old thread but did not find any other thread around the subject.

                        Steven,
                        how is your long term experience with the LiFePO4 car battery?
                        You used it as a starter battery, didn't you?


                        Or has anybody else long-term experience with them?

                        Cheers
                        Mike

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                        • #57
                          I too would like to hear from others using these, I assume the OP was referring to the LiFePO4 cranker batteries that are marketed as a direct repalce for the vehicles cranking battery, I would guess, and it is only a guess that these batteries have some for of internal cell balancing, they are usually only have a small Ah capacity 10 to 20 amp hours.

                          They are used in race cars and are being adopted by the motor bike fraternity.

                          I spoke to someone using one in his car and motor bikes and he said they worked
                          well and had no issues with them.

                          The batteries he was using were designed as drop in replacements for the cranking
                          battery.

                          These batteries are usually quite small in Ah capacity so why it might be light and crank ok, leaving the headlights on for instance will run them down quickly.

                          You can get large capacity batteries but then your talking big dollars and although they state suitable drop in replacement for a lead acid the specs would seem to indicate otherwise. I did contact the Fusion seller on Ebay once and asked them to clarify if there unit was a drop in replacement for lead acid and got no response.

                          As for charging off an alternator, from memory the max charge voltage for LiFePO4 is around 14.4V, they don't like higher voltages, under charging should not be an issue as long as they have some cell balancing system. You can get units with internal cell balancing and auto disconnect if max votage etc is exceeded but you can't use these as a cranker repalcement and they cost big dollars.
                          HKB Electronics, manufacturer of the Alternator Voltage Booster, Silver 2008 D4D,Lifted,Underbody protection, Alternator Voltage Booster, Tiger Z winch, Lightforce DL, Air Horns, Tanami Drawers, Drop down fridge slide, Outback cargo barriers, Rotronics dual Battery system, Polaris GPS, HF/UHF/VHF, Radio speaker combiner, Long ranger water tank, Diff breathers, Inverter, Snorkel and others

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by groeschel View Post
                            Sorry for reanimating an old thread but did not find any other thread around the subject.

                            Steven,
                            how is your long term experience with the LiFePO4 car battery?
                            You used it as a starter battery, didn't you?


                            Or has anybody else long-term experience with them?

                            Cheers
                            Mike
                            Hi Guys,

                            I'm still using the same LiPO4 battery for my other car (Lotus) and it is still working fine. It is a 290CCA battery, which in hindsight is only just enough for a cold morning start. I keep a trickle charger on it as the alarm takes quite a bit of power when it is not used for a week.

                            Now looking at one for the Prado... but going to get a 700CCA version - thinking of this one:

                            https://batteryspecialists.com.au/ss...-bs-hvt-1.html

                            Yes, it does mean that I would also need a Lithium Aux battery to keep things simple...
                            Rob.
                            '08 GXL V6 Manual with: O/L Bar, Cibie Oscars, Safari Snorkel, Revalved Ironman 45710 Struts & 45682 Shocks, Dobinsons & King springs, MickeyT STZs, Eaton E-locker on rear, ScanGaugeII, InaWise TPMS, and a Tvan controlled via TowPro.

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