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  • #31
    Originally posted by Skywalkerrun View Post
    WHAT?????

    How the hell did you work that conclusion out croozza????

    The way the LPG works on the diesel engine is that the engine works 100% stock standard and the LPG vapor is introduced via turbo boost pressure only! (No ECU,No sensors,No electronics!!!).

    When the engine on a diesel is running below say Approx 7pound (0.048psi) (What mine is set to) the LPG regulator does not introduce LPG vapor into the engine (No LPG on low boost or idle) via the turbo which is activated ONLY by boost pressure and "NO" electronics of any sort!!.

    The LPG has NOTHING to do with the electronics of the engine nor is it introduced to the electronics of the engine!

    The LPG system on the diesel turbo's is a TOTALLY independent system that has NOTHING to do with ANY ECU or engine management so how the hell does the LPG reduce or increase the diesel fuel pressures??

    WHERE IS THE DRAWBACK???

    Of course you can not run a diesel strictly on LPG as it is ALLOT more volatile than diesel under high compression so diesel has to remain in the combustion formula but the REGULATOR will not let more than 15% LPG vapor mix in with the diesel and only on high boost! (When engine boost drops EG "High RPM and no load or idle" then the gas regulator automatically shuts the LPG off).

    This low introduction of LPG vapor with the diesel gives better and cleaner burning of the diesel/Higher torque/More power and cleaner burning with NO black soot under load and as my prado does frequent runs to Queensland shows a consistent long range fuel consumption!

    When i run the LPG empty the engine goes back to running stock standard without having to switch the LPG off. The LPG system is a closed system but i can switch LPG off if i want.

    Unlike LPG on a petrol engine where you loose a fuel tank and have to replace it with a Gas cylinder that reduces ground clearance at the back and uses twice as much liquid to achieve cheaper fuel costs you also loose torque and power when running LPG on a petrol engine where as on a diesel engine you GAIN extra Torque and fuel range!!

    It is a whole new kettle of fish when running LPG on a petrol engine that ONLY runs either one or the other and not both.

    Cheers
    You MUST have the diesel fuel turned down to stop the motor from detinating, As Roo said, the heat generated from LPG and Diesel at the same time is extremely high. So the downside is less performance when your not using, or have run out of the LPG, there is no way possible to electronically adjust the fuel pump back to normal on the fly.
    Thats how I come up with that conclusion...lol
    97 VX Grande, with front & rear air lockers, ARB Sahara winch bar with tigers 11 winch, 2" EFS lift, 265/75/16 Achilles Desert hawk XMT, and more.


    [B]Bitumen - A blatant waste of taxpayers money![/B]

    Comment


    • #32
      You MUST have the diesel fuel turned down to stop the motor from detinating, As Roo said, the heat generated from LPG and Diesel at the same time is extremely high. So the downside is less performance when your not using, or have run out of the LPG, there is no way possible to electronically adjust the fuel pump back to normal on the fly.
      Thats how I come up with that conclusion...lol

      Quote: You MUST have the diesel fuel turned down to stop the motor from detinating

      Answer: How am i supposed to turn the diesel pump down when it is strictly controlled by the ECU and engine rpm?

      Quote: the heat generated from LPG and Diesel at the same time is extremely high

      Answer: The LPG regulator works only on turbo boost pressure and can only give approx max 15% LPG vapor on full turbo boost and obviously when the boost drops the regulator closes the shut off valve and so does the gas flow. so there is NOT extreme heat being generated but a cleaner more officiant burning process of the diesel.

      Quote: So the downside is less performance when your not using, or have run out of the LPG

      Answer: The engine does not need the assistance of LPG for extra power when at idle or zero load and i never run out of LPG but if i did the engine runs stock standard.

      Quote: there is no way possible to electronically adjust the fuel pump back to normal on the fly.

      Answer: Why would i have to electronically adjust the fuel pump back to normal on the fly when it has NEVER been adjusted from the beginning?

      Quote: Thats how I come up with that conclusion...lol

      Answer: LMAO!

      I think we are running off topic with this and should stick to fuel range

      Comment


      • #33
        OFF TOPIC! I need to clear the air

        How is it that when i think i am writing an honest review or opinion i put it up! .... it looks ok! .... Then when i read it back later i cringe at some of my wording that could of been worded more appropriately & diplomatically!

        I guess i feel a bit raw on how that Toyota has left me and others to foot the bill on costs of faulty parts when they have clearly got it wrong with the injectors and there weak "BAD FUEL" excuse is just a joke! Europe has always had better fuel than Australia and they are no better off. (I carried my frustration into this topic that was not appropriate).

        today i bought 4 x brand new (not refurbished) fuel injectors (Denso-095000-7781) with including the cost to encode the injectors to the ECU and of course the new rubber seals. Total $2,882.00.

        I will be fitting the fuel injectors next week when i have the time and will only change the injector lines if they spring a leak! (Probably wont).

        I do believe my fuel consumption and rattly cold start with the second generation injectors will improve and i will share the experience in the Sticky "diesel rattle in D4D Prado" section.

        As ########## explained earlier and he is spot on! when you consider the extra fuel costs to run petrol but less the dodgy injectors, dodging particular diesel brands, cleaning out the oily soot from inlet manifold etc is the extra trouble free petrol fuel costs really that expensive in comparison to a diesel long term?

        I do all of the service and maintenance on my Prado so costs to me are minimal but i guess if you are not a mechanic or such, then you can be talking seriously expensive maintenance bills with a diesel long term.

        I do enjoy driving the Prado and love it but at times i do get frustrated and side tracked.

        Thanks brogers & Bushbasher for the reality check on "When I drive, I drive for the pleasure."

        I clearly lost focus on the initial topic & wires did get crossed along the way.

        Air cleared and back on track to "Diesel cruising range on full tank"

        Cheers

        Comment


        • #34
          I can get as low as 8.1 or 8.2 l/100km around town unloaded, which can give over 2000km on my 180 litre capacity. Last year we drove from Port Hedland back to Perth on one fillup, which was about 1700km from memory, and that was towing a camper-trailer. Needless to say, I was very happy! Consumption was only about 11l/100km for that tankful. I do drive very gently and cruise speed in the country is rarely over 90km/h, but with a light right foot, it's quite impressive what can be achieved. And the other good bit is that in the country (in WA anyway), diesel is often cheaper than unleaded. Go D4D!
          White 08 Standard with ABS/cruise option pack, D4D/6-man, std 6" steel rims with Cooper AT3 235/70R17s, added roof rails, bullbar, towbar, ScanGauge II, custom-built aux power pack, Bushman multi-capacity fridge on slide, on DIY removable false floor. Often towing an Ultimate camper-trailer.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Talktheroo View Post
            To put on a gas system on any vehicle is an expensive affair, but I personally would not recommend it unless you have a cast iron head diesel engine. For smaller diesels with an alloy head, I simply don't recommend it. I thick for most people it will end up being false economy in the form of a big repair bill.
            +1

            I'm sure there are lots of people who get way with it, but I know one who didn't and the repair bill was horrific.

            Maybe I'd chip it instead, but probably its just fine how it is. I've got a fast car though, don't need a fast Prado. YMMV.
            2008 D4D M6 GXL [MT ATZ-P3][Whitey's Ironman 45710FE/45682FE+KTFR101H/Dob487][extended Roadsafe links][Polyairs][DBA T3/T2][amts diffdrop & recovery points][Tin175's stone guards][Bushskins BashPlate][ARB Sahara][IPF 900s][Snorkel][WindCheetah][MaxTrax][IC-440][Parrot Asteroid][ARB Fridge][Lifestyle 2nd Row Fridge Mount][ARB Compressor][Thumper][SandGrabbers][Cargo Barrier][Tigerz Awning][MCC Rear Bar]

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Skywalkerrun View Post
              You MUST have the diesel fuel turned down to stop the motor from detinating, As Roo said, the heat generated from LPG and Diesel at the same time is extremely high. So the downside is less performance when your not using, or have run out of the LPG, there is no way possible to electronically adjust the fuel pump back to normal on the fly.
              Thats how I come up with that conclusion...lol

              Quote: You MUST have the diesel fuel turned down to stop the motor from detinating

              Answer: How am i supposed to turn the diesel pump down when it is strictly controlled by the ECU and engine rpm?

              Quote: the heat generated from LPG and Diesel at the same time is extremely high

              Answer: The LPG regulator works only on turbo boost pressure and can only give approx max 15% LPG vapor on full turbo boost and obviously when the boost drops the regulator closes the shut off valve and so does the gas flow. so there is NOT extreme heat being generated but a cleaner more officiant burning process of the diesel.

              Quote: So the downside is less performance when your not using, or have run out of the LPG

              Answer: The engine does not need the assistance of LPG for extra power when at idle or zero load and i never run out of LPG but if i did the engine runs stock standard.

              Quote: there is no way possible to electronically adjust the fuel pump back to normal on the fly.

              Answer: Why would i have to electronically adjust the fuel pump back to normal on the fly when it has NEVER been adjusted from the beginning?

              Quote: Thats how I come up with that conclusion...lol

              Answer: LMAO!

              I think we are running off topic with this and should stick to fuel range
              Good to see your coolong off a bit,but back to what I said about the fuel pump, your reply is exactly what i'm saying, you can not change the diesel fuel ratio, this is done by the LPG installer, to stop the motor from detinating, they must turn the fuel down (electronically), there is noway you can turn it up (must be done by them), hence, when you are not using the LPG, your actually getting a lean burn on diesel alone, and with this comes less performance.
              97 VX Grande, with front & rear air lockers, ARB Sahara winch bar with tigers 11 winch, 2" EFS lift, 265/75/16 Achilles Desert hawk XMT, and more.


              [B]Bitumen - A blatant waste of taxpayers money![/B]

              Comment


              • #37
                ????

                I am sorry and apologise to PP's for this particular topic being off topic from the original "Diesel cruising range on full tank" but it adamantly went that way?

                This is very very repetitive and i am really trying to be polite guys!

                I have cooled down but i like actual facts and i am sure all PP's also like facts. After all that's what makes a forum thread an interesting read with lessons and knowledge along the way!

                Mates, just for the record, I don't attack anybody unless they start it. << (Nice tone of voice)

                I just look at things from my knowledge base and that is all. So there's nothing ever personal.

                As far as advise goes, well you can take it or leave it.

                If the LPG system has 100%/zero/zilch nothing to do with the electrics and the mechanics (before or after the ECU) of the cars engine management system & 100%/zero/zilch no ECU of any sort to run the positive press LPG boost regulator (Activated by turbo boost only) then why are you aliment that the LPG is altering any of the diesel pump pressures etc?

                You (Crozza) seem to be adamant on a point on a system Quote: you can not change the diesel fuel ratio, this is done by the LPG installer.

                The installer does "NOTHING" to the original engine management or mechanics of the vehicle what so ever!. "100%/zero/zilch no ECU of any sort to run the positive press LPG boost regulator" (Have i said this before?).

                (A collective) insist that LPG puts stress / extra loads & extreme heat on the engine but i have to date run the LPG / diesel (MAX 15% on full boost and declines as boost drops) for 3 x yrs and have now driven over 80,000km to date trouble free on the factory set LPG regulator. (No limp mode/ No engine management error codes / No EGT probe / no changing settings ect!).

                (A Collective) mention how you would only use LPG on a "Cast head only"! Is this because of the fear of reaching or exceeding 500 deg c?

                I believe that i have never reached those temps since i have owned the car from new and i know this as i still have good engine cylinder compressions and excellent fuel consumption for a car that is constantly driven hard sustaining constant loads with 8Ltr per hundred. (Actually 7.8 with faulty injectors) so i can rule out burnt inlet/exhaust vales & scorched pistons & rings. The cylinder compression readings 2 x weeks ago was 400-415 psi between all four cylinders (cold dry check). ... To date i have done over 120,000km & 0ver 80,000km of that with LPG added. (Will be higher when i drive home tonight).

                If you recommend to run or only recommend a CHIP on an alloy head engine that clearly looking back in the history on this forum (http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...972-which-chip Reply #4. "but the whole thread is interesting from begging to end!"
                (http://www.lcool.org/technical/elec_...ng/tuning.html This one is an old thread but still stands with today's technology (Diesel mechanics know this).

                Also take the time to read all other threads associated with a chip performance on this forum!

                Black soot on a diesel under load equals rich mixture which equals increased combustion temps). Yes we know lack of regular service/maintenance and fouled air intake filter can also cause black soot on diesels.

                White smoke on a diesel equals raw diesel not being burnt. (Not to be mistaken with steam on blown head gaskets).

                Both Rich mixture and lean mixture on a petrol engine increase combustion temps and can result in engine failure.

                Rich mixtures on a diesel increases combustion temps and can result in engine failure.

                Lean mixtures on diesels reduces combustion temps and reduce engine failure as well as a reduction in power. (if the EGR valve on a 1KD-D4D (Not 1KZ) is blocked or restricted it will cause loss of power and heavy fuel consumption due to high boost pressures being trapped & not dumped quick enough then the ECU automatically drops fuel rail press and may throw an engine management error code.
                Explained in full detail here http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...king-EGR/page3

                So why is it ok to get a vehicle with an alloy cylinder head up to extreme temps with a chip that clearly does as you need to use a EGT probe to shut the chip down in order to let the engine cool and only warranty on the supplied parts and not the engine without a ETG probe!

                Just my point of opinion and observation only...... that's all!. Its all here on this forum and it is not to single out or attack as i am just using existing knowledge that is available with my own current knowledge combined!

                Cheers

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Skywalkerrun View Post

                  (A Collective) mention how you would only use LPG on a "Cast head only"! Is this because of the fear of reaching or exceeding 500 deg c?
                  I assume (and you know what they say about assumptions) that people were hesitant to run LPG in Alloy head/engine vehicles due to propane's corrosive nature on aluminium (and other metals). It's difficult to know what engines have the correct alloy composition to resist the corrosion of propane as most signs are not seen until the high 100,000km a prime example is the TB48DE.

                  Originally posted by Skywalkerrun View Post
                  Both Rich mixture and lean mixture on a petrol engine increase combustion temps and can result in engine failure.
                  I disagree with this. Due to petrol's cooling properties, running a rich AFR lowers combustion and engine temperatures by cooling the intake charge and combustion chamber, and can be clearly seen in a high boost environments (2.0 bar plus) when tuning. The only engine failure from over fueling I could foresee is hydraulicing, worse case would be leg out of bed. I have owned\run vehicles with AFR dropping into the low 9.X:1 ratios for a number of KMs in high stress environments (read: flat out on a racetrack). This was a bit OT I guess but thought it was worth sharing
                  2014 D4D 150 Prado soccer mum mobile

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Hi ookami

                    I don't know anything about the old straight six TB48DE petrol engine (Nissan Patrol Y61). After all that is old technology and a poor comparison to the later high tech engines of today. Who with the knowing of ethanol would put that into there engines but people do! E10 (ethanol 10%).

                    A bit like grabbing an old leaded petrol engine then throwing UN-leaded petrol into it without the additive

                    I agree that if you was to convert the old engines to 100% LPG then you have to consider valve stem seats/valves engine temps etc. (Alloy property's are beyond me) We could even talk about why the newer engines run much higher running temps and why there is two types of engine coolant (Maybe more now) to reduce alloy corrosion and cast corrosion with there lubricating property's and higher boiling points but that was not what was being talked about.

                    All cars have brakes but why is there dot3 and dot4 fluid! Light commercial trucks also have air over hydraulic braking.

                    As far as petrol engines are concerned i only put the basic rules of fuel mixtures as an example of the fact that rich mixtures on diesels create extreme heat and lean mixtures cools on diesels but both on petrol engines increase temps on a petrol. (If a lambda probe/air mass meter/temp sender/ ECU error/air leak etc again throws you some where else!

                    I feel we are sliding away from the main point of that topic again that is now going in another direction again. Lol

                    Cheers

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      WOW thanks so much for all the replies....It took most of the morning at work reading which was pretty good start to a working day.

                      Ok just to be off the topic a bit.....

                      what does everyone think of the Land Rover Freelander 2? The wife likes the drive of the prado, but like the size of the freelander due to carparks and shopping centres, as I'm not the only 1 who will be driving the car...

                      Prado Con for the wife -
                      # Size is too big for a little lady to drive
                      # doesn't like the manual feel as its heavy and isn't what she expected

                      Prado Pro for the wife -
                      # everything else

                      Freelander 2 Con for the wife -
                      # the look

                      Freelander 2 Pro for the wife -
                      # most importantly the manual driving and size

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by crazym3 View Post
                        WOW thanks so much for all the replies....It took most of the morning at work reading which was pretty good start to a working day.

                        Ok just to be off the topic a bit.....

                        what does everyone think of the Land Rover Freelander 2? The wife likes the drive of the prado, but like the size of the freelander due to carparks and shopping centres, as I'm not the only 1 who will be driving the car...

                        Prado Con for the wife -
                        # Size is too big for a little lady to drive
                        # doesn't like the manual feel as its heavy and isn't what she expected

                        Prado Pro for the wife -
                        # everything else

                        Freelander 2 Con for the wife -
                        # the look

                        Freelander 2 Pro for the wife -
                        # most importantly the manual driving and size
                        Dont do it!!!!!!!!!
                        They are not a true off roader, they cost you an arm and a leg to buy and service, and dont get me started on the cost and time it takes to keep them on the road. Anything Land Rover, steer well clear of.
                        If your worried about the size of a Prado, then look at an FJ Cruiser, they are cheaper than a Prado, and even cheaper than the Freelander 2.
                        97 VX Grande, with front & rear air lockers, ARB Sahara winch bar with tigers 11 winch, 2" EFS lift, 265/75/16 Achilles Desert hawk XMT, and more.


                        [B]Bitumen - A blatant waste of taxpayers money![/B]

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I agree 100% with croozza as my girlfriend once owned the older model freelander and that was a pure hell and back experience!

                          EG: the gearbox drive-line was always having trouble and it loved to shred tyres irrespective to wheel alignments and the dealership was anything but helpful once they have your money. (A lot of money went into it & not by choice).

                          It also loved its black smoke despite its regular service and ended-up blowing a head gasket and the diesel distributor fuel pump died!

                          I have also driven the new "Land Rover Freelander 2" with my girlfriend as WE wanted to know if it had improved? (No intention of buying) She still loves her rav4.

                          It was nice to drive and it does look elegant..... whilst it works! I was also told that it has been re-designed from the ground-up!

                          I found the engine "cut-out" whilst in traffic to save fuel very, very irritating whilst in peak traffic. EG "Sydney" and i can only guess that it would be heavy on car batteries and starters motors long term.

                          I personally love the disco and rangie (I have pics owning both Feelander/Disco as proof) but would never own one again based on maintenance/Reliability & support, hence my loved Prado!

                          You will get very familiar with the workshop and front counter!

                          This is a "MUST" web sight to visit before you think of buying and don't let the dealership suck you in with there new image!
                          http://www.landroverhell.com/

                          Cheers

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            sorry all, very sorry,

                            - we looked at the FJ and there was no go and its petrol (we sold our petrol prado and was looking for a deisel) so thats a no go
                            - prado deisel was too big for the misses to drive so thats another no go
                            - mitsubishi, wouldn't want to go near it
                            - nissan x-trail deisel, its like drive a jet

                            so we ended up getting a freelander 2 deisel 2010 model manual as the misses likes the size, manual and its eassier for her to drive...

                            We took it to clyde river berry picking and for what its got (118kw, 400Nm) its got some balls......we took it through 8km dirt/gravel/rock track to get to the farm and through clyde river shallow crossing (all standard on the car) and it did better then what I expected....comparing to our 2010 petrol prado (Sold).the only issue is that the dash board started to rattle after the dirty/gravel/rock road.....

                            So in saying that......lets see how long the car last's until something goes wrong, then i can say to the misses,......See should have got the prado deisel... =D

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Gday crazym3

                              No need to be sorry for jumping the fence as you wouldn't be the first! Lol

                              I don't think we are bias here! ......... Well! ...... Sorta!.... Lol

                              You certainly threw your options out there with no bias and obviously most importantly the Freelander 2 ticked all the write boxes for you and your needs !

                              I hope that the Freelander proves all of us past scorned Land-rover owners wrong for your sake & that all goes well for you & your miss's

                              "Happy Wife, Happy Life" "That is Fact Not fiction"

                              Cheers

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I get between 1300 & 1400kms before low fuel light on the highway and around 1100 in town

                                Comment

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