The 150 series Dual Battery Guide

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Hi Leigh and some years ago, at least 8 years ago, I did come across a graph for Optima Yellowtop batteries, but, as you posted, it is almost impossible to get any additional info from Optima, beyond whats on their web site.

From “MEMORY” it was something like 1200 cycles to 0% SoC ( 10.5v ) and 2,000 to 20% SoC ( 11.58v )

I personally never “deliberately" discharge batteries blow 20% SoC.

I have tested starting many types of vehicles using an Optima D34 ( the one now being used as my wife’s Seca’s starting battery ) and every new vehicle I tested, started from the Optima, with a voltage of 11.58v or 20%.

The largest motor tested is my TDV8 and the Optima had no problem firing it up.

I have not tested this on a Toyota V8 yet.

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

Hi Leigh and some years ago, at least 8 years ago, I did come across a graph for Optima Yellowtop batteries, but, as you posted, it is almost impossible to get any additional info from Optima, beyond whats on their web site.

From “MEMORY” it was something like 1200 cycles to 0% SoC ( 10.5v ) and 2,000 to 20% SoC ( 11.58v )

I personally never “deliberately" discharge batteries blow 20% SoC.

I have tested starting many types of vehicles using an Optima D34 ( the one now being used as my wife’s Seca’s starting battery ) and every new vehicle I tested, started from the Optima, with a voltage of 11.58v or 20%.

The largest motor tested is my TDV8 and the Optima had no problem firing it up.

I have not tested this on a Toyota V8 yet.

That may have been a third party test / review? There are several of those from several years ago, because the spiral AGM battery - typically Optima - was often considered the best lead acid battery for electric car usage, due to its ability to accept charge quickly and also output high amounts of charge. I could list some links!

I understand that the reason why the wound concept is different to other AGM battery performance, is because the plates are thin. While thin plates means less life and faster current flows in square plate construction, the wound plate allows very tight attachments and this provides a strong and less fragile battery than if such thin plates were put into a square construction. The use of pure lead also has it seems no downsides in the wound construction method, unlike with the square constructions.

When your Optima eventually fails, it would be interesting to open it up and measure the plate thickness! Such figures don't seem to be commonly published.

I had thought that one of the Blue Marine Optima batteries had a thicker plate thickness because it has the same AH as its yellow version but it had lower CCA, unlike the other blue v yellow versions. I say plate because the Optima only has one plate per cylinder because its one winding per cylinder rather than lots of individual square plates in other batteries.

I have read in other 4WD threads that people have used Red Optimas in 4WDs for fridge as well as starting use, and that their batteries have lasted. I think the red is just a thinner again "winding" of the lead plate. There are also reports of failures of course and some have said they don't suit northern Queensland and they regret their yellow top purchases due to hot climates.

Optima also do publish their full cycle life, which is 350 full cycles. They do that in the USA. Quote:

"Yellow Top has been verified in Life Cycle testing to withstand up to 350 complete discharges".

As you and LeighW have said that unfortunately Optima do not graph their cycle testing results. Obviously if used less the cycle life goes right up, but the degree of the extra life has lots of variables.

Optima say that their AH reading refers to their complete discharge level. There are some studies on the benefits of lower discharge and some include the Optima. IMO in many applications the Optima or its Exide equivalent are at the lower end of battery bank AGM life cycle performance, but then they are not designed as pure cycling batteries.

Re the Exide version, there was a patent chase many years ago and the Exide version does not appear to be a re-branded Optima but rather Exide makes one themselves I think. But if its made in Mexico then it would be a re-branded Optima.

IMO the benefit of the Optima in Prados is fast charge but do so one needs to have the current flow available and hence it gets back to a bottleneck analysis of how much charge and where its going and also when. The concern is that if you did have lots of current to charge the Optima, and it was in a hot day in the bush and the turbo was belting out radiated heat, the battery might get hot.

While one can fast charge a battery, IMO a few tests don't indicate the cost of doing so in battery life. The benefit of the wound construction is that it does accept fast charge, but if it goes over 51C its life will be greatly reduced.

I'll probably put both my Optimas into my 150, with the smaller one in the spare space. But if I did it again I would not go that way. They are interesting for a trailer thought that has air conditioning, matched with an 80 amp bosch alternature driven by a Honda 2000 style motor (such ones are made in Sydney). But as the number of batteries goes up the benefits of high current acceptance goes down.

Kimberley use their Lithium batteries to assist starting their 240V air con unit in the bush. Lithium can output a lot of current. Then the small Honda (even 1000iu) small generator can run the air con. But they haven't tested Optimas IMO. I think the Optima would be a good alternative for them because it can output lots of current and hence allow the air con compressor to fire up. None of the camper companies use Optimas though. I guess because fast current is not needed and they are more costly per labelled AH.

On Lithium, I asked Australian Off Road and Campsite Australia about Lithium in their campers, and they said no problems accept for their cost. They said their use is going right up, but its still a minority who ask for them and that they are not on their option list. But because they buy smart controlled Lithium batteries (I can get their name) and that the smart controls prevent any over charge issues, its no hassle for them to supply Lithiums.

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Have you a link regarding the:

"Optima also do publish their full cycle life, which is 350 full cycles. They do that in the USA. Quote:

"Yellow Top has been verified in Life Cycle testing to withstand up to 350 complete discharges".

I don't know about you, but to me that makes a joke out of there statement on the Australian website that you can discharge the battery to 0% SOC without any adverse affects on the battery!

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Hi all,

Before marketing my booster units for the Prado I did extensive testing in my Prado and others to ensure the unit would not have an adverse affect on the vehicles cranking battery, Extensive testing indicated that the use of the boosters in the Prado would not cause any adverse issues.

Now that members have been using booster diodes for quite some time I'm after some feedback as to did I get it right or wrong?

Has anyone had a premature battery failure that can be directly attributed to the use of a commercially available booster diode?

Admin if this post breaches any rules can you please delete or reword till appropriate.

Cheers
Leigh

[BlakMoth Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close BlakMoth]

I just can't believe this is still going....


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[120D4D Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close 120D4D]

Hi all,

Before marketing my booster units for the Prado I did extensive testing in my Prado and others to ensure the unit would not have an adverse affect on the vehicles cranking battery, Extensive testing indicated that the use of the boosters in the Prado would not cause any adverse issues.

Now that members have been using booster diodes for quite some time I'm after some feedback as to did I get it right or wrong?

Has anyone had a premature battery failure that can be directly attributed to the use of a commercially available booster diode?

Admin if this post breaches any rules can you please delete or reword till appropriate.

Cheers
Leigh

As they say Leigh 'no news is good news'!

I would expect that if anyone had any problems then You (and based on the usual internet forum negativity logic) and the rest of PP would have certainly heard about it by now!!

I'm a happy user and everything is good for me - but only around a year in so far from your oldest customer.

[BlakMoth Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close BlakMoth]

I've had no problems either Leigh. All good here.


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[craigm Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close craigm]

All good here too Leigh. although I do have a dead 2 1/2 yr old Optima blue top sitting on my garage floor as a result of a failure earlier this year as a result of a faulty Alternator. This occurred following a trip to LCMP and it is suspected that too much water and mud engress into the alt caused the failure...

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Thanks for the feedback so far guys, I haven't had any customer complaints but
thought I would post up on here and get the good or the bad and see how booster
diodes are performing now they have been around for awhile.

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

All good here too Leigh. although I do have a dead 2 1/2 yr old Optima blue top sitting on my garage floor as a result of a failure earlier this year as a result of a faulty Alternator. This occurred following a trip to LCMP and it is suspected that too much water and mud engress into the alt caused the failure...

It didn't come back after reconditioning? Bum.

[craigm Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close craigm]

No this is a battery that died early this year mjr. I replaced it with another. ( the one that was flattened to 5 v). Which has recovered nicely. I tried to recover the dead battery from early this year but it failed the test and is now sitting on the floor taking up room in my garage ( must do something about that!)

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

Have you a link regarding the:

"Optima also do publish their full cycle life, which is 350 full cycles. They do that in the USA. Quote:

"Yellow Top has been verified in Life Cycle testing to withstand up to 350 complete discharges".

Its here, in an Optima pdf blurb, its on page 4. The heading says in bright red text:
" Superior Deep
Cycle Performance
– Power to go the
distance... "

I don't know about you, but to me that makes a joke out of there statement on the Australian website that you can discharge the battery to 0% SOC without any adverse affects on the battery!

But that cannot make sense! Obviously, the deeper you go, the lower the cycle life. There's no miracle there IMO.

Go from 10.5 flat to 20%, and various test charts I've read double the cycle life typically. Go from 20% to 50%, and you will gain three times the cycle life gain over the 20%. Hence often 6 times the cycles from 10.5 flat to 50% AH capacity. In lab setups. Diff P curves for all but near enough for me ...

I think the figure probably makes sense if you jumble up their claims. Consider that Optima say (on their Aussie web site too) that their AH rating is not the same as other AGM AH ratings. Optima says their AH figure is referenced to 20% ... in other words, their 41 AH is actually 51, their 55 is 69 and their 66 is 83 (my calculations not Optima's).. If you were doing a battery bank for say a boat, then you would setup the system to take into account their rated figure, not run all the way to non operational, because its not economic to run down to 10.5 %. Because running down to 10.5 or using the last 20%, typically halves your battery life. So no way would a boat person do that, its crazy.

So I thought to make such a claim, that Optima were referencing their actual usable capacity - ie in the 55 AH, you use that 55 AH. Not the actual 69!!!

They said it not me!

That's a reason why I get frustrated by the lack of data ...

Note too many - most IMO - of the claims reference to generic batteries ... such as "lead acid" ... sometimes "deep cycle" or "deep cycling" ... rarely a competitive product's technology.

We can guess that if one goes from full discharge to 20%, then that doubles the cycles. So, that would be 700. 50% might be 6 times ... ie 2,000 cycles. We don't know the benefits of less usage for the spiral wound batteries, but we do know typical usage longer life curves ... there's a huge difference between 20% and 50% etc.

So ... I thought the 350 a decent figure ...

Then again ... maybe its another Typo ??? I just scratch my head an not worry too much ... the Spiral's feature IMO is its fast charge and current output. If those aren't necessary, there are better returns on one's dollar IMO., just like you've said from day one.

For a caravan with an air con though, I;d go Optimas if weight doesn't matter. I can;t understand that all the makers haven't used them and offered bush non 240V power point air con setups with a big inverter, some Optimas for starting the air con compressor, and then the $1,400 or even $900 genny runs it ....

And there's lots of cycle stuff on them, all done a number of years ago, for the electric vehicle usage, people did heaps of testing and published it, only problem was they were mostly interested in current flow issues rather than ultimate cycle life.

Warning - Crazy Comment:
Then again, I don't know why the caravan industry hasn't gone down to Toyota and asked for their brake hybrid set ups. Why not use the caravans brakes to generate power to their battery banks, and that way the brakes also last forever? I guess you'd need a generator / electric motor for that setup to work .... But ... that could mean if you get your trailer stuck, you could power its wheels out!!! That could all be very handy when you get stuck in severe terrain ... you could move the heavy trailer around under its own power too ...

Hybrid vehicles can't tow much either ... hence there's no hybrid Landcruiser - it couldn't tow anything heavy, the hybrid system couldn't handle it ...

Maybe one day ...

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

You'll die worrying about it, I'm surprised they persist with the no I'll affects claim on the Australian website though, the figures provided by the parent clearly show they suffer the same limitations as other batteries though to a lesser degree?

Again it all gets back to what your happy with and believe is good value for money

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

Must have had my diode in for around 4 1/2 years, fit and forget, zero issues here.

Cheers Andrew

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

Yup ... the big Companies don't provide much but marketing stuff and that's the way they want it.

Its interesting too that Costco sell batteries here, and they used to sell a Bosch marine battery here, but now they don't. Maybe its too tough for them to get involved with anything but a starter battery. In the USA, the discount stores rebrand top quality batteries, which sell for a fraction of the price of the top quality branded batteries do. Their RV and boat market is huge and those people have to buy a minimum of 8 decent sized batteries for a boat, I think we don't have such discounts.

As some posters here have said, they've bought batteries from RV caravan places for heavily discounted prices, and those places get good buy prices. Unlike our 4WD dealers who would not have the volume of deep cycle sales that a caravan place gets. I think the caravan places have good value batteries, some camper vans etc use gel and AGMs too, but I've not seen an Optima mentioned.