The 150 series Dual Battery Guide

[404pug Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close 404pug]

Thanks Leigh. The solar all makes sense to my non electrics brain. Re. the trailer you are saying have a dedicated set of cables from starting battery to rear Anderson plug rather than run a cable from the battery box inside the car? Neil

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Should the isolator be as close as possible to the starter battery?

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Should the isolator be as close as possible to the starter battery?

Hi 404pug, as amts posted, that isolator is already giving you problems and the problems are common to ordinary VSR isolators that are mounted any distance from the cranking battery.

If you move the isolator to a location near as possible to the cranking battery, you will resolve the problem of the isolator oscillating on and off, if batteries are low.

You will need a circuit breaker at the cranking battery, the auxiliary batter and the trailer battery.

If you connect your solar anywhere other than at the cranking battery, you will charge the auxiliary and house batteries but not the cranking battery.

Connect the solar to the cranking battery and you will then eventually charge all your batteries.

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

Optimas will accept higher charge currents at lower voltages but still like higher voltages to fully charge them. Optima also state that you can discharge the battery to 0% SOC without damaging the battery, if that is not true deep cycle I don't know what is. PS that is what Optima state, as to the validity of their claim?

Firstly the issue with redundancy - some would claim that more batteries is more fault tolerant, because if one fails, you then have the others. This is pretty basic fault tolerance. Because in a battery, if a cell fails, then the battery fails. So logically, more 12 vault batteries is more fault tolerant.

I your tearing your hair out - most of mine fell out when I got married!

As far as Optima goes and the fault deep charge issue - they can sustain less recharges than batteries intended for purely deep cycle - at least from my reading of the statistics with various other deep cycle AGM batteries.

My reading: indicated that a dual starter / deep cylce battery has different thicknesses of lead. A starting battery has thinner lead, allowing greater starting power. In a combination deep cycle / starting battery, there are variances in the lead thickness. The thinner parts allow greater starting voltage. Those thinner parts also fail sooner. A purely deep cycle battery has thicker lead to surface ratio, and hence suffers less degradation and thereby can have more recharges.

Incidentally, I presume the Optima winds its lead in different thicknesses (the Optima being circular plates wound I think rather than rectangular panels in most other such batteries) hence giving it easier to manufacture dual functionality. However I have not seen drawings or one broken down - its just my presumption.

As far as the Marine Pros - their negative issues for me, is that they do not re-charge as quickly as a glass matt AGM battery. The same slower re-charge is also an issue for Gel batteries. In my situation, I want batteries to avoid having to start the motor. So if the motor is re-started, then I'd like the re-charge to take a short time. So AGM has an advantage for me on re-charge.

The negatives on AGM are cost and weight, both big issues it seems. Being wet and more susceptible to leaks and gas outputs etc is also a negative, especially if out of the engine bay.

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

Firstly the issue with redundancy - some would claim that more batteries is more fault tolerant, because if one fails, you then have the others. This is pretty basic fault tolerance. Because in a battery, if a cell fails, then the battery fails. So logically, more 12 vault batteries is more fault tolerant."

Problem is one faulty battery in a parallel group can lead to premature failure of the other batteries.

As far as Optima goes and the fault deep charge issue - they can sustain less recharges than batteries intended for purely deep cycle - at least from my reading of the statistics with various other deep cycle AGM batteries.

Since I have been able to obtain a graph from Optima showing expected number of recharge cycles
compared to depth of discharge, and I would suspect you haven't either, the only way to tell
would be to do some testing.

As far as the Marine Pros - their negative issues for me, is that they do not re-charge as quickly as a glass matt AGM battery. The same slower re-charge is also an issue for Gel batteries. In my situation, I want batteries to avoid having to start the motor. So if the motor is re-started, then I'd like the re-charge to take a short time. So AGM has an advantage for me on re-charge.

You can recharge a Marine Pro from 50% SOC to 100% in about 120 minutes, that's quick enough for me!

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

Problem is one faulty battery in a parallel group can lead to premature failure of the other batteries.
...

Yes, I guess in boats they must manage that issue somehow ... they have quite a lot of electronics in big motor boats, and battery costs in those (which run fridges and computers and spend a lot of time moored) are quite high.

Since I have been able to obtain a graph from Optima showing expected number of recharge cycles
compared to depth of discharge, and I would suspect you haven't either, the only way to tell
would be to do some testing.

I've just read reviews ... and they Optima advantages were not in their life or performance, but in their ability to charge at lower rates. Evidently typical deep cycle AGMs really do need a decent voltage.

As far as Optima go, I have bought two in the last year - one for my wife's RX350 Lexus, and another for my 90 series Prado. I am therefor not against them!

However ... for a 150, one of the issues with a front installation, is the bulk of the battery. And the column/tubular design of the Optima means that it resembles 6 tubes vertically placed. This means that in between each tube, is air. And hence, the battery is bulkier that square section batteries. So for space issues, I suspect its not the best choice.

I'd bet in 5 years time, a Lithium Iron Phosphate (or similar tech version of Lithium) will be the easy choice. In fact, Lithium batteries cells are about the same cost as straight lead acid. The problem is, that the electronic management systems the batteries require to maintain balance between the cells and also to prevent overcharging - which kills them - is not a mature industry and hence there are profit margins in such technologies. So people buy battery cells from China, and then source the casings etc and create the management systems, package all those together and make a big profit if their marketing is good. I suspect that as time goes forward such abnormal profits will leave Lithium leaving more price effective Lithium batteries.
[/QUOTE]

...
You can recharge a Marine Pro from 50% SOC to 100% in about 120 minutes, that's quick enough for me!

But not for me ! Its the price and weight that temps me though.

Funny thing is that if I put in two dual batteries, and bought a Lithium jump starter pack, that would be cheap and reliable. Perhaps I wouldn't need the management electronics with a Lithium jump starter pack, which can be handy anyway as theyr are very light and can tolerate run flat and recharging well.

Incidentally - I have a Mercedes B class 200Turbo - and it has the battery inside the car. It's in front of the driver's seat. When you say auto manufacturers don't put batteries inside cars - well, they do it seems. At least Mercedes did with its A and B class vehicles. The twin floorpan (now gone with their cheaper new modelprovided a good place to put a battery. There is a substantial gap in the top of the twin floor ban there, and in front of the battery, is large and open fuse box without a cover on it. There is air between the battery sides and the fuse box. The battery is very solidly mounted, I don't know what it sits on, but there is no battery box. Just a 20mm piece of foam on the top of the whole area which covers the battery, an air space and then the fuses, and then a carpeted on one side (for the vehicle floor) which on the underside of the floor next to the battery foam barrier is just straight injection moulded plastic.

[LeighW Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close LeighW]

There have been a number of batter types that were going to make lead acid batteries
obsolete, it hasn't happened yet.

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

There have been a number of batter types that were going to make lead acid batteries
obsolete, it hasn't happened yet.

x2

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

There have been a number of batter types that were going to make lead acid batteries
obsolete, it hasn't happened yet.

Well, it has happened with racing cars. They all use Lithium, and have done so for years.

If Lithium was the same cost as lead acid, most would choose Lithium. I think you are talking about cost / performance, rather than the most suitable battery. As it stands, Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries compared to Lead Acid, have a number of advantages: They are much lighter due to their higher density, they last longer, they don't sulphate, they charge quicker, they release greater energy, they are much less heat sensitive, they are more compact, their voltage is more linear under usage, they are fully enclosed and don't vent toxic gases.

They cost much more though and that is the real issue.

Anyhow, this is a Prado forum and despite my ignorance I have gathered a list of batteries that might do the job in the front of a Prado 150 series. In doing so, I have come across a number of errors in published details of batteries too, so I've even rung some to the suppliers and manufacturers to confirm details, and that has not been easy.

Curiously too I've crossed off my preferred list the brand of battery that I have bought this year for two vehicles - namely the Optima.

I'll post the list here when I've got some confirmation of capacity on a couple of batteries, although I think a table is not possible to list here? Advise would be welcome on table posting ...

Another issue that has surprised me somewhat is warranty. Warranties vary, and are restricted in some cases. For instance with one made in Australia brand, their AGM batteries despite featuring more rugged construction, are not warrantied for under the bonnet usage. With various industrial and semi industrial batteries, their warranties are restricted too lesser times, I think because in industrial usage their cycles are much greater than when being used in a Prado. The warranties are an issue unto themselves I think!

Cheers

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Lithium batteries are charge sensitive and MUST be charged correctly or they will have a VERY short life.

They require a separate setup and must not be used in parallel with lead acid batteries, which makes them more of an orphan type battery. than something that is RV friendly.

[AussieAndy Find all posts View Profile Close AussieAndy]

Well, it has happened with racing cars. They all use Lithium, and have done so for years.

If Lithium was the same cost as lead acid, most would choose Lithium. I think you are talking about cost / performance, rather than the most suitable battery. As it stands, Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries compared to Lead Acid, have a number of advantages: They are much lighter due to their higher density, they last longer, they don't sulphate, they charge quicker, they release greater energy, they are much less heat sensitive, they are more compact, their voltage is more linear under usage, they are fully enclosed and don't vent toxic gases.

They cost much more though and that is the real issue.

Anyhow, this is a Prado forum and despite my ignorance I have gathered a list of batteries that might do the job in the front of a Prado 150 series. In doing so, I have come across a number of errors in published details of batteries too, so I've even rung some to the suppliers and manufacturers to confirm details, and that has not been easy.

Curiously too I've crossed off my preferred list the brand of battery that I have bought this year for two vehicles - namely the Optima.

I'll post the list here when I've got some confirmation of capacity on a couple of batteries, although I think a table is not possible to list here? Advise would be welcome on table posting ...

Another issue that has surprised me somewhat is warranty. Warranties vary, and are restricted in some cases. For instance with one made in Australia brand, their AGM batteries despite featuring more rugged construction, are not warrantied for under the bonnet usage. With various industrial and semi industrial batteries, their warranties are restricted too lesser times, I think because in industrial usage their cycles are much greater than when being used in a Prado. The warranties are an issue unto themselves I think!

Cheers

So why did you cross off the optima? Curious as im about to pull the trigger on buying one or two for the prado??

[Prone Member Find all posts View Profile Close Prone]

Lithium batteries are charge sensitive and MUST be charged correctly or they will have a VERY short life.

They require a separate setup and must not be used in parallel with lead acid batteries, which makes them more of an orphan type battery. than something that is RV friendly.

However lithium batteries can be quite useful for charging a lead acid battery. On our last trip I managed to let the aux battery, an Optima 55Ah in the car get quite low. It was being used by the fridge in the car and we had been stationary for a few days.

The lithiums in the Van were pretty full from solar so with a little jiggery I connected the aux car battery in parallel with the Van lithiums. With all the cabling from back of van to front of car the current was about 15A. After a few hours the Aux battery was up to the 13.2V (nominal) of the lithiums and the current near zero. The Victron suggested that about 50Ah had been transferred which is probably about right as the aux battery is a 55Ah unit and the fridge was still connected. I left the batteries connected in parallel for a day and noted that the current into the Optima stayed about zero so all the load was being taken by the lithium batteries in the Van.

Based on this it would appear that if you do parallel lithium and lead acid the lead acid battery is only there for the ride and will sit there floating at about 13.2V. I suspect the recharge current would get quite high if the cables between the batteries are shorter than I had.

Cheers
Prone

[drivesafe Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close drivesafe]

Hi Prone, I have set up a number of lithium battery systems now and while what you did with the Optima ( I’ll bet it was a Yellowtop ) will work, if you had had any other lead acid battery, you would have had a continual current draw from the lithium battery to a standard lead acid battery.

An Optima Yellowtop ( and some of the Bluetops ) has an open circuit fully charge voltage of 13.1v, but all other lead acid batteries have an open circuit voltage of 12.7v, and this lower voltage will mean the lead acid continually draws on the lithium.

I have worked with both types of set up and it is normally much safer to keep the two types of batteries separated.

[MelbournePark Member Find all posts View Profile Close MelbournePark]

So why did you cross off the optima? Curious as im about to pull the trigger on buying one or two for the prado??

Firstly, this is just my opinion, and its not the opinion of a professional who is involved with batteries and electrical systems in vehicles. Optima is part of the biggest battery group in the world I think, and no doubt they have been very good batteries.

Now - also these factors were directed for comparing with other AGM batteries not so called "wet" non AGM batteries (and yes I know some "wet sealed marine or rugged batteries are toughened with fibreglass which is likely therefor AGM construction). Leigh W has made in this thread explicit about the value of "wet" marine and such batteries too, but the factors following refer to issues with an AGM battery comparison. So .. - IMO :

- Marketing hype. I think they use the differentiated marketing tool a lot but they don't back up much data and real detail.

- Quality rumours. Johnson transferred production to Mexico and there have been reports of quality issues. However perhaps these issues were in the early days of the production transfer, and I've had no issues with mine.

- Pricing and warranty. Once quite expensive, their prices have come down a lot but also their warranty data is not provided on their Australian web site. The site where I bought my second Optima has a warranty says a warranty of three years for personal use and two years for the greatest AH model, the 31 series.

--- Off topic - I should more about this because I've bought two in the last 18 months (a 55AH for my wife's lexus RX and a 66AH for my 90 Prado). I think I'll keep the 17 year old 90 its worth so little (bought it brand new) and maybe my 22 year old will take it and camp alongside my 150. ---

- Technology - IMO they are orientated towards starting power (the cold crank power) rather than to deep cycle. This IMO is not good because in order to get cranking power, you have to have thinner lead plates which enhances reactitivity and hence output, and thinner lead lowers battery life. I presume they have wound thinner lead likely towards the end of its wound pillar - but their construction detail is not explained in detail IMO so I've made my own conclusions.

- Form Factor - Due to the twin 3 towers (6 wound tubes in all) the battery has air between each tower (one the outside of the battery hence its tubular appearance), which wastes volume that could otherwise be used. A rectangular battery with rectangular lead plates has little wasted space. This is not an issue probably with most installations but for the Prado 150 with its air conditioning piping restricting battery length, form factor (in the Prado's case battery length) is an issue for me and IMO the Optima lacks performance for its length.

- Weight per Amp Hours - the Optima doesn't rate that well IMO. Since reserve power is my issue, and Prados are said to be weight sensitive in their front battery carrier area, AH per kg is a big issue IMO.

That all being said, I think an Optima makes a good starting battery in a Prado, due to its high cranking power and it benefits from also from reserve power if a battery controller is installed so that its reserve power can be accessed without threatening starting ability. But even for that I doubt I'd choose one now.

I also have yet to finalise my thinking ... I have yet to evaluate Lithium Iron Oxide, and I haven't cancelled that technology out yet because I intend keeping my vehicle for at least 10 years, I like a battery that ages less, and the 80% Depth of Charge ability of a Lithium, plus its linear power which means less current flow being necessary, plus its light weight and fast charge, makes it worth while considering its high downsides of cost, lack of warranty and integration charge issues.

I can post some comparisons of lead acid batteries when I have more certain data, but as an example, look at the FullRiver range of AGM batteries, which have variances in their cold cranking outputs per KG. Their batteries show that there are weight benefits in having lower cold cranking power.

[Symo Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Symo]

My optima was drained flat by two fridges in 14 hours, it was reading about 8v, idled the prado for 30 mins and it was sitting at 13.2v, I then just ran a freezer off it and only needed 15min idle a day to stay full. Fastest recharge I have ever seen.