Lift Vs Articulation Vs Load Carrying

[Rusty62 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Rusty62]

Re: Lift Vs Articulation Vs Load Carrying

RicCoh
Try the suspension main page for info on brands.

[Rusty62 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Rusty62]

Re: Lift Vs Articulation Vs Load Carrying

Pics of the first setup i used on the VX. Spacers made from steel machined to locate the spring. 20mm spacer gave 40mm of lift.






image host

[Schaffer Addicted PP Member Find all posts View Profile Close Schaffer]

Re: Lift Vs Articulation Vs Load Carrying

Rusty,

You should probably have a good read through the following as the use of spacers at the top there puts immense stress on the CVs due to the angle they will be on:
Upper control arms and front end travel.
OME plus a little more....

[hisham saeed Member Find all posts View Profile Close hisham saeed]

Re: Lift Vs Articulation Vs Load Carrying

i did the same with 13mm spacers front and 50mm for rear, first mod i did to my prado when first bought it , as a temproray solution till i finish reading all the threads about suspention & lifts .
finished reading and still can't make up my mind,but have tendcy to oldman meduim load with air bags.

regards
hisham

[Rusty62 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close Rusty62]

Re: Lift Vs Articulation Vs Load Carrying

Putting the spacers in is the same as fitting higher springs. Provided you don't go overboard or more than 50mm lift the CV's won't be under stress. Some of the kits avaliable have lifts in excess of 60mm and this will cause issues. Our previous 120 series had springs fitted by a 'expert dealer' and lift was 60mm. Looked great but had vibration at 90kph. Ran the high springs for 80000 km before changing shocks to a better brand that had adjustable height and on the low setting had 50mm lift. Went away at higher speed and when we sold car 120000 showed little or no effects.
There is no difference to the CV if you use a spacer or spring to the same ride height.

The spacers i used were in the car for 40000 and only reason they came out was to fit better rate spring and new shocks. And i kept the lift to 40mm with the new springs.
What we did discover re height was providing ground clearance was not the issue a medium raise provided a lot more downtravel which stopped a lot of the rear opposite tyre from popping off the ground as much. This was a problem in my first 120 particually downhill. The front would walk into a hole and the rear which was also 60mm raise would constantly run out of downtravel and leave the ground and give a 'bump'. With the lower raise this was reduced a lot. I also have a slightly softer spring and better shocks than the first car.


Rusty.

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

Those spacers you have fitted give the same result as a longer spring of the same rate or moving the spring seat up like on a Bilstein. It increases ride height and decreases droop. Spacers that fit above the strut itself have the same effect as fitting a longer strut. Ride height is increased but droop is retained. Obviously both will increase CV angles, so an overall height increase of 60mm or less need to be observed. As well as 60mm minimum droop.

[1coolbanana Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close 1coolbanana]

Spacers that fit above the strut itself have the same effect as fitting a longer strut. Ride height is increased but droop is retained.

Except for the up travel has now been limited by the shock and not the bup stop.
The possibility of destroying a shock is high because on max compression the shock may bottom out before you get to the bump stop.

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

Except for the up travel has now been limited by the shock and not the bup stop.
The possibility of destroying a shock is high because on max compression the shock may bottom out before you get to the bump stop.

The misconception here is that as soon as you fit spacers your bump stops will no longer limit up travel and you will bottom out and destroy a strut. All is good in moderation, if you fit big spacers, then you may not have enough up travel and could bottom out the strut. Same as if you fit longer springs, you may not have enough droop left and could top out the strut. It all requires careful measurement and consideration to the limitations.

[8608 Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close 8608]

i have yet to see an aftermarket spring with an aftermarket spring bottom out on the front of a Prado or Hilux. i still think at 50-70mm of lift, the lower arm will hit/bottom on the bumpstop before the strut bottoms out.

if you use the OE spring and strut, and a 30mm+ spacer, you may be very close to bottoming the strut out. generally aftermarket struts are less than 40mm longer if not the same length as the OE units.

anything less than 60mm of lift over standard is pretty safe. i've had the OME at 790-800mm for over 80,000km's and now have it up to 835mm ride height on the front.

[1coolbanana Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close 1coolbanana]

The misconception here is that as soon as you fit spacers your bump stops will no longer limit up travel and you will bottom out and destroy a strut. All is good in moderation, if you fit big spacers, then you may not have enough up travel and could bottom out the strut. Same as if you fit longer springs, you may not have enough droop left and could top out the strut. It all requires careful measurement and consideration to the limitations.

No misconception, the vast majority of people dont do or have the ability to do the "careful measurements and consider the limitations" as you and few others might.
They just simply buy strut spacers and fit them which like I said, can put you in a higher risk situation of wrecking a shock.

Unless you know what your doing then I think its dodgy and risky.

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

Unless you know what your doing then I think its dodgy and risky.

Yes Marc I agree, unless you know what you're doing it is risky. So here's my disclaimer:

Any specific measurements posted here are approximations and are to be used as a guide only, at your own risk. All research and any parts fitted or modifications done are the responsibility of the individual. I take no responsibility for any injury or damage that may occur.

Ok, I did say in my previous post "all is good in moderation". With this in mind, a 5mm to 10mm strut spacer can be safely fitted to most struts without damage. The only exception I can think of is the Superior Engineering SRC strut, which is such a long strut that a spacer would be useless.

Unfortunately, most spacers on the market are more than double what I consider to be safe. Out of all the manufacturers that sell spacers that I have recently spoken to, only Superior Engineering suggested that the bump stops may need packing. Do not rely on advice from those that sell spacers, only seek advice from suspension specialists and fitters that will take responsibility for what they fit.

If you fit strut spacers that are more than 6mm thick you will need to fit longer strut cap studs, which requires the struts to be dismantled. If you fit strut spacers that are more than 10mm thick without doing your research, then you will risk damage to your strut, especially if it's a standard strut.

A safe maximum compressed strut length will ensure the strut won't hit bottom before the bump stop is reached. A safe maximum extended strut length will ensure CV angles and other limitations are safe at full droop.

The bump stop is reached at a compressed strut length of about 455mm, adding a margin for error, I would consider the maximum safe compressed strut length to be about 445mm. If you fit a strut spacer that extends the compressed length of a strut beyond 445mm, then you may risk damaging the strut.

For the maximum extended strut length, possibly the first limitation is where the upper control arm contacts the coil, which is at around 560mm to 565mm strut length, this can be overcome with new upper control arms, at a price. The next limitation is where the CV angle becomes an issue, which is about 565mm strut length, which can be extended to approx 570mm strut length with a diff drop kit.

So, to avoid any serious mods or damage, choose a front strut (and spacer combination) that is no longer than 445mm fully comressed and no longer than 565mm fully extended. Limit your lift to about 810mm ride height from guard to bottom of rim to avoid wheel alignment issues and maintain at least 60mm droop, and you should be OK.

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

Gordon,
By far the biggest restriction to wheel travel and flex is OE shocks. They are too short and restrict down travel, which in turn restricts flex. Aftermarket shock absorbers are (generally) longer and offer more articulation, better control and better fade resistance.

That's not very correct bro.
The front of the Prado has a coilover suspension design (oft confused with MacPherson struts) which top & bottom out before the shock, so aftermarket shocks will not make any difference to travel at the front.

Actually, a "Coilover" is short for "coil spring over strut". The coilover is in fact a basic component of the MacPherson strut suspension, not a suspension design in itself. The Prado has upper and lower wishbones with a coilover strut.

The limits of the front suspension occur at bumpstop on compression at approx 455mm strut length and on extension at about 565mm strut length. The OE strut is only 545mm long in the 120 series, so clearly there is potential for 20mm improvement at the strut. This translates to 40mm extra down travel at the wheel.

The rear shocks I've measured including OME and Koni RAID for Prados and various others for other cars were all exactly the same effective extended length. Shocked me initially I gotta say, but on reflection, the limiting factor should be the suspension design otherwise you get into issues around brake hose length & propeller shaft angle.. not to mention the alignment of your rear axle.

The rear suspension limits are bumpstop contact at approx 390mm shock compression to 615mm shock extension where the sway bar becomes limiting. Since OE shocks are only 575mm extended, there is potential for 40mm more shock travel. This translates to about 50mm extra down travel at the wheel.

In short you can't really talk about longer shocks & more wheel travel without talking about heavily modified vehicles. Unless you're inadvertently talking about timebombs.

Modifications need not be extreme. an extra 30-40mm of suspension down travel is easily and safely achieved with most aftermarket shocks alone, when compared to OE shocks.

Data on shock absorber lenghts and coil specifications from the Suspension Database: http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread...nsion-Database

[wooley Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close wooley]

Actually, a "Coilover" is short for "coil spring over strut". The coilover is in fact a basic component of the MacPherson strut suspension, not a suspension design in itself. The Prado has upper and lower wishbones with a coilover strut.

I think you'll find a coil over is just like a spring over... Where you move the spring from beneath the axle to on top of the axle.

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

Wooley, I think you'll find the spring is only mounted beneath the axle if it's a leaf spring

[Peterpilot Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Peterpilot]

Here's a little vid showing how maximum articulation is reached from bumpstop to maximum extension with aftermarket suspension: