diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[Baileys Diesel Group Member Find all posts View Profile Close Baileys Diesel Group]

Steve,

Honestly speaking, I'd estimate that 35% of all dead and returned injectors were this newer DLC type (part number 23670-30280). I really believe that the only reason why the numbers are lower is due to the fact that they are just newer + younger...

Hope this helps

[qwerty_steve Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close qwerty_steve]

The theory you present for the spindle needing DLC sounds valid... To paraphrase your website, without the coating the spindle wears with tiny scratches. When the engine is cold and tolerances are tight, the spindle binds up, resulting in more fuel being dumped into the cylinder chambers when cold, resulting in engine knock. When the engine gets warm, things expand and the problem goes away. Sounds completely plausible.

This thread on D4Ds and their injector woes started way back in 30/04/2008, just 2 years after the D4Ds release.

It has now been 6 years to the present date since the newer DLC injectors were introduced, and these newer injectors only account for 35% of your business? Surely then these DLC injectors must have at least fixed the problem in part. Being newer + younger doesn't add up. After 6 years nearly all of the ’08-’09 Prado’s have racked up well over 150K kms.

Logic tell me that that DLC injectors go some way to improving the injectors’ failings, but they aren't the silver bullet that many who have changed out their injectors hoped they were.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying DLC injectors are the ducks nuts - I have just purchased an '07 Prado which had the injectors replaced 5 years ago (80K kms), thinking I would be safe from injector issues. To my detriment it still has cold knock. So it looks like I may be up for the beast's second set of injectors.

I'm awaiting my ECU cable and software as we speak.

Time will tell if DLC coating the spindle solves this problem. 50,000km / 3 year warranty is almost three times Denso’s warranty, but still quite low in Km’s I feel if you are confident and back your product. 100K minimum should be no trouble at all if the wearable parts have this superior coating. Especially given the cost to replace.

Steve

[r4ndll Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close r4ndll]

The theory you present for the spindle needing DLC sounds valid... To paraphrase your website, without the coating the spindle wears with tiny scratches. When the engine is cold and tolerances are tight, the spindle binds up, resulting in more fuel being dumped into the cylinder chambers when cold, resulting in engine knock. When the engine gets warm, things expand and the problem goes away. Sounds completely plausible.

This thread on D4Ds and their injector woes started way back in 30/04/2008, just 2 years after the D4Ds release.

It has now been 6 years to the present date since the newer DLC injectors were introduced, and these newer injectors only account for 35% of your business? Surely then these DLC injectors must have at least fixed the problem in part. Being newer + younger doesn't add up. After 6 years nearly all of the ’08-’09 Prado’s have racked up well over 150K kms.

Logic tell me that that DLC injectors go some way to improving the injectors’ failings, but they aren't the silver bullet that many who have changed out their injectors hoped they were.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying DLC injectors are the ducks nuts - I have just purchased an '07 Prado which had the injectors replaced 5 years ago (80K kms), thinking I would be safe from injector issues. To my detriment it still has cold knock. So it looks like I may be up for the beast's second set of injectors.

I'm awaiting my ECU cable and software as we speak.

Time will tell if DLC coating the spindle solves this problem. 50,000km / 3 year warranty is almost three times Denso’s warranty, but still quite low in Km’s I feel if you are confident and back your product. 100K minimum should be no trouble at all if the wearable parts have this superior coating. Especially given the cost to replace.

Steve

To be fair diesel knock and cold knock can be caused by many things; engine overload, high-load/low speed, leaking injectors, over-temperature, contaminated diesel, irregular spray pattern, by design (ECU advancing the timing when cold), Piston slap, incomplete combustion of injected diesel due to low temps etc etc.

So its entirley possible that you have cold knock that is nothing to do with your injectors.

My old 60 series sounded awful parked up hill in the cold and that definitley had no fancy bling DLC injectors or common rail

[cfryback Find all posts View Profile Close cfryback]

Bushbasher,
the 316 injectors only have the DLC coating on the nozzle needle and the actuating valve at the top. 95% of the failures we see here are actually the main spindle in the centre. Based on this logic, a 30140 or a 39316 injector are both equally as likely to fail in Australian conditions, hence our move to now also coat the spindle.

So are all you injectors like this, or is this a new change?

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Hi guys

Some good points of general knowledge for the un-known.

Some of it is old (As far back as 2012) & more recent (12 months ago).

#1 How a Common Rail Diesel Injector Works and Common Failure

Ignore the adds on this link below but take note of the common fails.

#2 Why Diesel Fuel Injectors Fail

#3 DENSO Develops a New Diesel Common Rail System

Cheers

[qwerty_steve Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close qwerty_steve]

To be fair diesel knock and cold knock can be caused by many things; engine overload, high-load/low speed, leaking injectors, over-temperature, contaminated diesel, irregular spray pattern, by design (ECU advancing the timing when cold), Piston slap, incomplete combustion of injected diesel due to low temps etc etc.

So its entirley possible that you have cold knock that is nothing to do with your injectors.

My old 60 series sounded awful parked up hill in the cold and that definitley had no fancy bling DLC injectors or common rail

I read a post a while back which said that Toyota may have programmed the ECU to advance the timing when cold to meet the (then) changing emissions regulations. Unconfirmed though, perhaps someone can confirm this.

BDG said over the phone if it wasn't the injectors it may be a 'suck valve'... or something to that effect that I can't remember exactly.

[Baileys Diesel Group Member Find all posts View Profile Close Baileys Diesel Group]

HI guys,

Qwerty-Steve:
Our warranty is already the best in the business, whilst 50,000km warranty is still low, i think you're asking the wrong party here mate.
Its worth remembering the market some 16 months ago when we started. toyota = $1100 per injector, Denso Dealers = $770 odd / injector, Denso - CRI not repairable and ALL with 12month / 20,000km warranty.
NOW
Toyota = $550 LIST, Denso Dealers more like $440, Denso with their own exchange and all still with 12/20 warranty.
Even if you don't buy our product, BDG has helped the market.

With regards to Stuck Valves, the guys were talking about Suction Control Valves - responsible for rail pressure.

CFRYBACK;
Until 3 weeks ago, our injectors were the 'same' as Denso, without this coated spindle fix - although still built to the tighter specs. This Spindle failure in the last 12 months has been getting Significantly worse, from our observations - hence the desire to fix.

SkyWalkerRun;
Great links that i've not seen before. These are all based on Bosch injectors, which has a very different design execution but very similar operating philosophy. Where it talks (correctly for Bosch) about the valve failing, this failure mode is rare in Denso, but very common in Bosch. Rest is correct.

[DJ120 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close DJ120]

FOLLOW UP ON INJECTOR CHANGE.
Well my Prado just turned over 140,000kms which is about 2500kms on the new BDG injectors. I was initially a bit disappointed with the power however we found the air intake sensor on top of the air box dirty and after a good clean out, all good. What a difference. I had previously fitted a K&N filter and I believe this may have contributed to the sensor getting very dirty. Anyway all good now and I'll know what to do if I have the same symptoms. Most recent fuel return is 9.399Ltrs per 100Kms. 60% highway and 40% stop start and off road.

Cheers

[DJ120 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close DJ120]

Anyone know where one might get a new "O" ring that fits around the air inlet sensor on top of the air inlet box. (around Perth) Toyota don't sell separately, only whole air box. Can you believe that?

Cheers

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

Go into somewhere like Coopers Fluid or Hydraulink. They have thousands of different sized rubber "o" rings.

[DJ120 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close DJ120]

Go into somewhere like Coopers Fluid or Hydraulink. They have thousands of different sized rubber "o" rings.

"Transeals" in welshpool ended up having one. Thks BB.

[Bluebox Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Bluebox]

My 08 Grande only developed the bad cold start / low speed rattle at 185k. I have just had it serviced by Toyota and I specifically asked then to investigate the noise but they have told me that its all fine. The noise is normal for age and kms. I purchased it at 140k so the injectors may or may not have been previously changed. Anyway I am happy to accept the Toyota service manager saying that all the pressures are in tolerance. I will give the old girl a set of BDG injectors at 200k. Great forum guys..

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

Anyway I am happy to accept the Toyota service manager saying that all the pressures are in tolerance.

Like they know WTF they're supposed to be looking at. You have more faith in those service guys than most of us here on the forum!

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

Like they know WTF they're supposed to be looking at. You have more faith in those service guys than most of us here on the forum!

Rest of us maybe?

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

HI guys,

Our warranty is already the best in the business, whilst 50,000km warranty is still low, i think you're asking the wrong party here mate.
Its worth remembering the market some 16 months ago when we started. toyota = $1100 per injector, Denso Dealers = $770 odd / injector, Denso - CRI not repairable and ALL with 12month / 20,000km warranty.
NOW
Toyota = $550 LIST, Denso Dealers more like $440, Denso with their own exchange and all still with 12/20 warranty.
Even if you don't buy our product, BDG has helped the market.

I agree, absolutely! without competition to Toyota on these injectors we would be getting screwed @ $1100.00 a piece.
BDG are the only real competition & I thank the BDG team very much for all the efforts you have gone to.
A superior product, from a great company with years of experience in being the best, the best product & at a very reasonable price. You could say 4 for the price of one. Great work team!!!