diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[Anth120playdo Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Anth120playdo]

My 08 Grande only developed the bad cold start / low speed rattle at 185k. I have just had it serviced by Toyota and I specifically asked then to investigate the noise but they have told me that its all fine. The noise is normal for age and kms. I purchased it at 140k so the injectors may or may not have been previously changed. Anyway I am happy to accept the Toyota service manager saying that all the pressures are in tolerance. I will give the old girl a set of BDG injectors at 200k. Great forum guys..

Toyota always say its fine. The noise may be normal at that age, but so is piston damage if you don't get that noise & worn injectors replaced.
I'd advise you to change them now.

Just trying to help you.

[cfryback Find all posts View Profile Close cfryback]

HI guys,

CFRYBACK;
Until 3 weeks ago, our injectors were the 'same' as Denso, without this coated spindle fix - although still built to the tighter specs. This Spindle failure in the last 12 months has been getting Significantly worse, from our observations - hence the desire to fix.

So I'm confused, you are saying that you are having you injectors "failing" spindles? If that is the case, then I have a cold rattle for you......

And I'm still under warranty...

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Until 3 weeks ago, our injectors were the 'same' as Denso, without this coated spindle fix - although still built to the tighter specs. This Spindle failure in the last 12 months has been getting Significantly worse, from our observations - hence the desire to fix.

Could this be the case of an old distorted injector carcass?...

EG: If the injector housing is slightly distorted could it be posible to grab the high carbon steel needle which is much harder than the outer casing?

Just thinking out loud.

Cheers

[AJ120 Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close AJ120]

I don't think Matt is suggesting failures with their product, rather spindle failures in general. Hence their push to improve their product to avoid this happening.

Cheers Andrew

[Baileys Diesel Group Member Find all posts View Profile Close Baileys Diesel Group]

yeah, poorly written post then.

What I'm referring to is that when we started this process in January last year, the average condition of the average injector returned was much better than they are currently. in these early days, the spindle wasn't really seen as an issue, but by September last year was becoming increasingly so. We've been trying to work towards a DLC fix for all moving parts since we started (just to further evolve the 39316 generation) but it became a much higher priority since we've seen this average condition of the returned (ie exchange) injectors deteriorating.

Hope this clarifies it.

[Baileys Diesel Group Member Find all posts View Profile Close Baileys Diesel Group]

Skywalker run,

I'll post a few photos for you guys about the seizure marks we talking about (which causes this additional friction). I Believe its more to do with fuel quality / Lubrication than anything else. This is somewhat supported by consistent claims of quieter running when adding minute amounts of 2 stroke and by our own experience with the 'self lubricating DLC spindles' definately being quieter too...

More to come. Got some chopped up injector bodies on route to the states currently for failure analysis...

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

I Believe its more to do with fuel quality / Lubrication than anything else.

This i agree given that people are adding fuel additives to there fuel?

To every action there "WILL" be a reaction to that action!

EG: Two stroke oil and injector cleaning additives that are corrosive!

#1 Two stroke oil can cause piston rings to stick & clog!... What would the result to the high pressure CRD injector in the long run?

#2 Injector cleaner additives are corrosive in order to break down build ups and contaminate engine oil at the same time!..

#3 If an old injector has distorted slightly then wont this grab the pinital needle when the injector expands from heat and that's not including the additives that people add?

Why is it that the so-called contaminated fuel can get through the injector tip but not past the pinital needle?

So many un-answered questions.

As you know! ...

EG: Denso have been making high press CRD since 1995, have more than 200 subsidiaries and affiliates in 36 countries, employs more than 130,000 people & in 2013 Consolidated global sales that totalled US$38.1 billion & DENSO spent 9.4 percent of its global consolidated sales on research and development!

I am not convinced that Denso have dropped the ball on this one but i am also aware that they aren't the ones adding additives to there fuel or extra filters that can plug sooner and increase negative pressure to the high pressure fuel pump and cause the injectors to delay in response etc and we wont add elevated fuel pressure in that equation either!

I am not attacking but thinking what i think is more simplified logic!.. And the first three questions have to removed from the equation and thats not including the number one culprit!.. Water!

Cheers

[gxl_d4d Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close gxl_d4d]

not all injector cleaning chemicals are corrosive. Some are surfactants and work similar to detergent.

[qwerty_steve Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close qwerty_steve]

EG: Two stroke oil and injector cleaning additives that are corrosive!

#1 Two stroke oil can cause piston rings to stick & clog!... What would the result to the high pressure CRD injector in the long run?

SWR from what I have read nearly everyone who has tried 2-stroke at 200:1 have been pleased with the results. Most people report the engine running smoother, some say their fuel economy gets better. I have not read of any adverse effects based on user experience. So long as a low mineral ash 2-stroke oil is used, it is said to burn cleaner than diesel. If piston rings could clog and stick, wouldn't they do this from the carbon deposits from burning diesel? Besides, piston rings are meant to stick... to the cylinder wall! They then have 400Nm of torque moving them around

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday qwerty_steve

SWR from what I have read nearly everyone who has tried 2-stroke at 200:1

Mmmmm? Show real laboratory stats instead of forum fodder and i might be convinced (I Don't think so!).
As it is common on "ALL" forums for one person to get excited and say "BOO!" ..... And the whole forum jumps without giving any thought to there comment!

Car Manufactures around the world spend billions into Research & development (Not a back street novice) to develope cleaner burning/ More fuel efficient engines that produce more power and are quieter running.

They also have to consider what fuel is available in this R&D and build accordingly to those figures with the understanding that oil refineries have already put the appropriate additives in the fuel that have to meet stringent targets and regulations that have been put forward by world governments.

I personally would strongly disagree with diluting your fuel unless you have a PHD in chemistry and think/Prove you are smarter than the Motor Industry with the Data to back your revolutions and Enlightenments up!

I did a "Quick" search and found these links below.

Click links below!

Fuelexpert

Lubricity Additive Study Results PDF

carmag

Also!

If you want a better understanding on why & who reduced the sulphor in the fuel read this link i written in 2012!

Is a long read but i did bother to do research!

Click link below!

Blocking EGR

At the end of the day you "Can" do whatever you want to your rig but you better have some back-up cash in the long run!

Cheers

[qwerty_steve Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close qwerty_steve]

As it is common on "ALL" forums for one person to get excited and say "BOO!" ..... And the whole forum jumps without giving any thought to there comment!

Not one person but many people. There is weight to overwhelming user experience, which in my book I give merit to.


Fuel Expert

Opinion only


Carmag

Alludes to research, no link.


Lubricity Additive Study Results PDF

The link posted did not work for me, found it though http://www.natbiogroup.com/docs/educ...%20results.pdf

Very interesting read Skywalkerrun

“There have been many documented cases of randomly tested samples of diesel fuel. These tests prove that often times the fuel we purchase is not adequately treated and may therefore contribute to accelerated wear of our fuel delivery systems. For this reason it may be prudent to use an after market diesel fuel additive to ENSURE adequate lubrication of the fuel delivery system.”

Additives tested and listed in order of their effectiveness at increasing lubricity:

1) 2% REG SoyPower biodiesel
HFRR 221, 415 micron improvement.
50:1 ratio of baseline fuel to 100% biodiesel
66.56 oz. of 100% biodiesel per 26 gallons of diesel fuel
Price: market value


2) Opti-Lube XPD
Multi-purpose + anti-gel
cetane improver, demulsifier
HFRR 317, 319 micron improvement.
256:1 ratio
13 oz/tank
$4.35/tank


7) Super Tech Outboard 2-cycle TC-W3 engine oil
Unconventional (Not ULSD compliant, may damage 2007 or newer systems)
HFRR 474, 162 micron improvement
200:1 ratio
16.64 oz/tank
$1.09/tank

The number 1 lubricity performance enhancing additive in this test group is…. 2% Soy based bio diesel. Good luck getting hold of some B100 (100% soy bio diesel) in this country though.

Opti-Lube XPD comes in at number 2, and is available from the States. It is also a cetane booster. If it at least pays for itself in economy gains as a cetane booster then it would be a no brainer for lubricity of inadequately treated diesel.

http://opti-lube.com/diesel-fuel-imp...r-product.html

I’m currently looking into acquiring some of this stuff from shopspeedhouse.com, shipping is quite expensive out of the US though. Still, it works out to $11.80 per 180L fill. I've read people getting mild fuel economy savings of 0.5L / 100. If that was the case then @ 10L /100 highway driving which is what I currently get, I'd save $13.50 in fuel, so it would pay for itself.


The lubricity of the other products mentioned tapers off considerably after the first two products (micron improvement).


Lastly it seems that 2-stroke oil in older engines works well, but (apparently) no good for CRD engines. This explains why there are so many positive reports for the use of 2-stroke oil (in non CRD engines).


Cheers
Steve

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday qwerty_steve

I have read nearly everyone who has tried 2-stroke at 200:1 have been pleased with the results. Most people report the engine running smoother, some say their fuel economy gets better. I have not read of any adverse effects based on user experience.

Mmmmm? Show real laboratory stats instead of forum fodder and i might be convinced (I Don't think so!).

This explains why there are so many positive reports for the use of 2-stroke oil (in non CRD engines).

That was my whole point from the beginning?... 2 stroke oil in CRD is a big No.No and still stands!... That's why i put the links there to back up my statement instead of the forum fodder that resembles a Hyclone theory!

After all this is a D4D thread! (CRD).

I’m currently looking into acquiring some of this stuff from shopspeedhouse.com, shipping is quite expensive out of the US though. Still, it works out to $11.80 per 180L fill. I've read people getting mild fuel economy savings of 0.5L / 100. If that was the case then @ 10L /100 highway driving which is what I currently get, I'd save $13.50 in fuel, so it would pay for itself.

I reckon you would pull them figures driving in a reserved manner and their claims still resemble the hyclone theory given we are talking 2%! Lol

I personally would put your money else where as i reckon those figures would be so hard to see in real world tolerance figures!

You would probably get the same figures as "Opti-Lube XPD" running alpine fuel and that is a "No,No" in warm climate's!......

Still reminds me of the Hyclone theory!... Lol

There have been many documented cases of randomly tested samples of diesel fuel. These tests prove that often times the fuel we purchase is not adequately treated and may therefore contribute to accelerated wear of our fuel delivery systems.

Show me some links with some examples (Excluding independents) & i might believe you!..... Actually show me any links with these claims!

Cheers

[qwerty_steve Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close qwerty_steve]

That was my whole point from the beginning?... 2 stroke oil in CRD is a big No.No and still stands!... That's why i put the links there to back up my statement instead of the forum fodder that resembles a Hyclone theory!

Yep I’ll give you that one Skywalkerrun, I was merely pointing out there were many satisfied customers who used 2-stroke, I now know it shouldn’t be used in CRDs!

Show me some links with some examples (Excluding independents) & i might believe you!..... Actually show me any links with these claims!

The links are from your own research. This blurb:

There have been many documented cases of randomly tested samples of diesel fuel. These tests prove that often times the fuel we purchase is not adequately treated and may therefore contribute to accelerated wear of our fuel delivery systems.

… was in quotation marks because it came from the study you originally posted. It is not substantiated by fact, and I never implied that it was. I simply found it a profound statement within a research paper that deserved highlighting as a potential lead for further investigation.

On another note Matt Bailey contacted me this morning in response to me filling out the ‘Diagnose my Rig’ form on their website. He concurred that my injectors are stuffed. It’s 80K service time anyways so not too big a deal. I asked him if the injector spindle was the final piece of wearable components within the injector to which the answer was yes.

If I find an additive that pays for itself in fuel economy gains (cetane), then I’ll be more than willing to fuss over additives and get the lubricity kicker. If not then I don’t think it’s really worth it with all wearable components of the injector being DLC coated. I’ve purchased a secondary 3 micron filter and that will be going in shortly.

[OldGreyFart Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close OldGreyFart]

I have finally booked my D4D into Bailey's recommended 'supplier' in Queanbeyan NSW for replacement injectors etc. Work will be done Tuesday week - hoping everything OK till then. Gary was very informed and was complimentary about how nice it was to deal with BDG.

We spent some time discussing tolerances and he asked me what my specs were like - I told him that at this stage the only one causing concern was #3 which was at +2.2 - the others were well below this (0.5 and 2 at -1.1). I am just about to roll over 125,000 and am getting white smoke at start up for about 10 seconds on cold mornings. The pick up screen at this stage is clean. Lots of those here in Canberra this time of the year.

I told him that the business that normally services my vehicle accepts up to 2.5. Gary said that Toyota accept 3 but he works on 1.7 as being the limit.

Any thoughts about the discrepancies.

[Bushbasher Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close Bushbasher]

he works on 1.7 as being the limit.

1.7 - f&*k.