diesel rattle in D4D Prado

[Graceilyons64 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Graceilyons64]

Hi All,

1) Can anyone help me find a great diesel fitter in South Australia
2) What insurance company cover replacement parts - In the event that my car is not drivable due to part failure?
3) or - Extended warranty, who should I go to?

thanks


P.S. - I need to get my car fixed

[outback7 Banned Find all posts View Profile Close outback7]

Well said John......I have around 4 and a half years left with my warranty and extended factory warranty so we will see what happens. I love my Prado, it's the first one I have owned and won't be my last. My trip down the Hat River track, the Simpson, flinders was handled very well with the 150. Look around at what else you can buy brand new and really nothing else comes close to the Prado......anyhow just my opinion.

[DocK Member Find all posts View Profile Close DocK]

Just a observation - had the new injectors in for a while now thankfully no rattle at all.

I have also been monitoring the EGT. It seems that the EGTs a lower with the new injectors. I was running around 750F+ especially under load (sorry, its a yankee gauge in Farenheit, but it does have an alarm and can trigger the intercooler fan etc) With the new injectors running 600 - 625F.

With the LPG on and the chip on it does not reach the same heights as before. Not sure what to make of that but someone on the forum might.

Cheers
DocK

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday Dock
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The injectors have a 16 digit calibration code on them, This code is so that the ECU knows exactly how much fuel is going into the engine through the injector tip. As the injectors wear the calibration code becomes less irrelevant (No longer accurately know exactly how much fuel is passing through the injector tip), As we already know if you put more fuel into the engine it generates more heat and burns more fuel... Also creates black soot due to over-fuelling. (Fouled air filter and dirty MAF sensor can also contribute to access fuel and soot).
_______
Logically if the ECU can no longer monitor fuel accurately it can also no longer give accurate fuel readings if you have a computer fuel meter. your ever increasing fuel consumption will continue to climb but it will not show up on the gauge unless you measure your fuel from full tank to full tank and then measure how much fuel it takes to fill it again.
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This is also why chips have you thinking you are getting better fuel consumption despite that in reality you are actually using more fuel
Cheers

[iantz Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close iantz]

I've stayed out of this thread, and for good reason. But, I do wish to point out that statistics are very important for two reasons. 1) If they are lower than purported here, this thread is just scaremongering (I myself am a little cautious as to whether to move to a D4D, and I don't know whether I should be); and 2) There needs to be some sort of evidence that an unacceptable amount of failures are occurring. Toyota Australia will have built into their design an acceptable failure rate, and until you have some kind of evidence that there is a higher than acceptable rate (10% I think would be unacceptable, but probably isn't realistic), Toyo Australia will NEVER come to the party with recalls etc. The courts will also not make them do this unless there is evidence of a 'serious' design flaw.

The Roo points out that because a lot of people don't know about PradoPoint, the numbers could be higher than we think. But, I would probably suggest the opposite is true, and that PradoPoint collects more than its fair share of engine failure reports due to the victims of these failures googling/yahooing for answers, then joining in on the discussions here.

If you are serious about getting stats, then let's do it. We can host an online survey, and go about sending it to all PP members, and Hilux forum members etc etc. There will still be a bias in these stats, but it's a starting point.

Who knows, we might all be pleasantly surprised, or not....

[DocK Member Find all posts View Profile Close DocK]

G'Day Skywalkerun

Guess that means the faulty injectors were overfuelling or "dripping/leaking" - hope that the internals have not suffered as a result! In the context of the rattle does "out of spec" mean overfuelling or underfuelling or perhaps either?

Cheers
DocK

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Gday Dock
If the injectors are out of spec then they will over fuel.
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EG 1: If you make the injector tip holes bigger (Injector spray ports) and you know that the ECU is relying on voltage feed back resistance with calibration code in the equation (ECU Thinks there is ex amount of fuel passing through the injector tip) then the ECU will adjust the pulse width/duration of the injector to bring the compensated fuel flow back in line.
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Problem here is if the injector tip ports are worn then they will also no-longer atomise the fuel properly in the combustion chamber.... Would be more noticeable on cold mornings as diesel does not like the cold due to clouding/igniting flash point etc... this in-turn leaves larger collective amounts of fuel droplets burning fuel in the combustion chamber and erratic burning of the fuel.... Hence the cold knock!
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I figure if the engine runs better and your fuel consumption as reduced then we can assume the engine is fine
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If you have a camera probe that fits close to where the injector sits (Obviously with the injector removed) and the piston on that cylinder at BDC (Bottom Dead Centre = piston at the bottom of the cylinder bore) then i am sure you would be able to see the crown of the piston for heat burns EG: piston has started to crumble from extreme heat.
_______
Cheers

[DocK Member Find all posts View Profile Close DocK]

No problem with fuel consumption - 8.7L/100kms on the trip last weekend. Running sweet and good power, so I guess everything is fine. Think I will give the camera inspection the miss for the moment. Thanks for the reassurance.

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Hi Guys
I have been doing Houuuuuurs & houuuuurs of reading on failed injectors and there is distinctive patterns that pops up in the over seas forum's!...
_______
I will translate What i have read and condence into simple layman's term's so that the simplest of the mechanical minded can understand and get the big picture with the intent to identfy/understand the early warning sighns!
_______
There is clearly no prediction or life span of the No:1 culprit the "Injector seating washer" but since it has been confermed as a recognised issue (European Recall) since June 2004 (Yes the D4D was released 2002 in europe) and does have its early tell-tail sign's!... Irrespective to who is write or wrong!.. This is real peoples feed back and not from Toyota's bean counters!
_______
EG: Increased fuel consumption/ Puff of white/blue smoke on start-up when left stood for long periods and the fouling of the engine oil pick-up pipe... These are destitive warning sighns gatherd from owners personal experances prior/before engine failures.
_______
Here is roughly/Predictably how the story goes and i will keep it in the order of preference on how the big picture un-folds if not identified early!
_______
#1: Firstly!... it starts with the ever illusive failure of the fuel injector seating washers.
_______
#2: The hot gasses escaping from the combustion chamber pass the failed/Breached fuel injector seating washer (This action in-turn blows out the oil O-ring seal from the fuel injector which also allows the engine oil to seep back into the combustion chamber when engine (Switched off) left stood).... Hence the short burst of white/blue smoke on anitional start-up.
_______
#3: Engine oil is cooked/baked from the extreme combustion temps when seating washer is breached and causes carbon/sooty deposits to form in the engine oil.
_______
#4: Carbon/sooty deposits drain/collect into the engine sump and then are sucked back up at the oil-pick-up pipe (gauze strainer) which in turn fouls/restricts/block's the oil pick-up pipe...
_______
#5: Engine is starved of engine oil supply (lack of oil pressure) preventing enough oil from being sprayed on to the bottom of the pistons, Obviously these spay jets are more sensitive to drop in oil pressure! (At this point not blocked/restricted enough to trigger oil pressure warning light)... that comes on (Oil check warning light) afterwards when the critical damage is already done!... lack of oil pressure can cause damage to the turbo but these turbos are very tough and robust....
_______
#6: piston picks up and scores the cylinder bore due to over heating (Lack of oil lubrication to the piston can be "some times" recognised by a ticking noise) and leading to ring/Piston failure (Usually/commonly No:1 cyl first).... I personally also "think" this is provoked by the EGR port also running across the internal of the cylinder head (Coincidentally No:1 cyl) and all the other cylinders are completely surrounded by a water jacket and not a hollow cavity for the hot EGR exhaust port gases!... I believe this EGR port would expose No:1 injector to more heat than all of the other 3 x Cylinders... This may also explain the numerous new part Numbers for No:1 Cyl injector clamp?.... Who knows as I'm just throwing theories around here...
_______
#7: Extreme heat can also result in injector failure!.. What ever the conclusion of variables is No:1 cyl seems to be the catalyst.
_______
#8: "Typical early Warning Signs" 'Increased fuel consumption/carbon blocking oil strainer and Ticking noise.
_______
OUTLOOK! The D4D donk is a very robust/tough/strong unit and will remaine to do do if early warning sighns are picked-up/Identifyed EG: fould oil pick-up/ puff of smoke on start-up and out of range injectors... "Remember".. Fould oil pick-up pipe and puff of smoke are the dead-ringers of the injector seals..
_______
Hope the above gives piece of mined (Not the sales pitch "Piece of mind"..Lol) for those who are un-settled by the whole catastroffic thing.
__
Cheers

[mackayvx Advanced Member Find all posts View Profile Close mackayvx]

Thats an excellent overview skywalker...

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Why thanks mackayvx
I seriously spent houuurs & Hours reading through heaps of pages!
The theory on the No:1 cylinder is mine so could be wrong but it does look that way to me!
Cheers

[Graceilyons64 Lurker Find all posts View Profile Close Graceilyons64]

Hi Guys
I have been doing Houuuuuurs & houuuuurs of reading on failed injectors and there is distinctive patterns that pops up in the over seas forum's!...
_______
I will translate What i have read and condence into simple layman's term's so that the simplest of the mechanical minded can understand and get the big picture with the intent to identfy/understand the early warning sighns!
_______
There is clearly no prediction or life span of the No:1 culprit the "Injector seating washer" but since it has been confermed as a recognised issue (European Recall) since June 2004 (Yes the D4D was released 2002 in europe) and does have its early tell-tail sign's!... Irrespective to who is write or wrong!.. This is real peoples feed back and not from Toyota's bean counters!
_______
EG: Increased fuel consumption/ Puff of white/blue smoke on start-up when left stood for long periods and the fouling of the engine oil pick-up pipe... These are destitive warning sighns gatherd from owners personal experances prior/before engine failures.
_______
Here is roughly/Predictably how the story goes and i will keep it in the order of preference on how the big picture un-folds if not identified early!
_______
#1: Firstly!... it starts with the ever illusive failure of the fuel injector seating washers.
_______
#2: The hot gasses escaping from the combustion chamber pass the failed/Breached fuel injector seating washer (This action in-turn blows out the oil O-ring seal from the fuel injector which also allows the engine oil to seep back into the combustion chamber when engine (Switched off) left stood).... Hence the short burst of white/blue smoke on anitional start-up.
_______
#3: Engine oil is cooked/baked from the extreme combustion temps when seating washer is breached and causes carbon/sooty deposits to form in the engine oil.
_______
#4: Carbon/sooty deposits drain/collect into the engine sump and then are sucked back up at the oil-pick-up pipe (gauze strainer) which in turn fouls/restricts/block's the oil pick-up pipe...
_______
#5: Engine is starved of engine oil supply (lack of oil pressure) preventing enough oil from being sprayed on to the bottom of the pistons, Obviously these spay jets are more sensitive to drop in oil pressure! (At this point not blocked/restricted enough to trigger oil pressure warning light)... that comes on (Oil check warning light) afterwards when the critical damage is already done!... lack of oil pressure can cause damage to the turbo but these turbos are very tough and robust....
_______
#6: piston picks up and scores the cylinder bore due to over heating (Lack of oil lubrication to the piston can be "some times" recognised by a ticking noise) and leading to ring/Piston failure (Usually/commonly No:1 cyl first).... I personally also "think" this is provoked by the EGR port also running across the internal of the cylinder head (Coincidentally No:1 cyl) and all the other cylinders are completely surrounded by a water jacket and not a hollow cavity for the hot EGR exhaust port gases!... I believe this EGR port would expose No:1 injector to more heat than all of the other 3 x Cylinders... This may also explain the numerous new part Numbers for No:1 Cyl injector clamp?.... Who knows as I'm just throwing theories around here...
_______
#7: Extreme heat can also result in injector failure!.. What ever the conclusion of variables is No:1 cyl seems to be the catalyst.
_______
#8: "Typical early Warning Signs" 'Increased fuel consumption/carbon blocking oil strainer and Ticking noise.
_______
OUTLOOK! The D4D donk is a very robust/tough/strong unit and will remaine to do do if early warning sighns are picked-up/Identifyed EG: fould oil pick-up/ puff of smoke on start-up and out of range injectors... "Remember".. Fould oil pick-up pipe and puff of smoke are the dead-ringers of the injector seals..
_______
Hope the above gives piece of mined (Not the sales pitch "Piece of mind"..Lol) for those who are un-settled by the whole catastroffic thing.
__
Cheers

Hi, Skywalker

I understood what you are saying... thanks for the laymans terms.

A question - As you know the identified injector failure was No. 3 for me... And as you would have seen the photo's of all 3 injectors on my posts are barely recognisable. No. 1 injector is still in the engine and was not removed, it will be interesting to see when it's removed. The research you have done so far is great! Does TOYOTA Aust have a documented LIFE SPAN for injectors? This would be interesting to find out.

What you've described above, I noted sequence of events when my injectors failed e.g. Oil light coming on just before engine failed. Bluish white smoke prior to engine failure etc...

From what we know at this point my engine still has the old type injectors not the new DCL ones, which begs the question. During the warranty period, why wernt they changed over whilst in the hands of Toyota Australia? Or why isnt there any record of service/cleaning of the injectors on the service records/log book? And why doesnt Toyota Australia send out bulletins to Registered Mechanical Service businesses? And Why isnt the known service on injectors (at 40k intervals) been added to the Log book, I cant find it?

Just throwing questions out there!!!

[krypto Avid PP Poster! Find all posts View Profile Close krypto]

Skywalker, very logical and readable overview of the problem.

I assume that Skywalker is a reference to Star Wars.... so thank you we do

[mjrandom Out of control poster! Find all posts View Profile Close mjrandom]

An update on my injector problem. After finding that two injectors were out of tolerance I was informed by someone at the service centre that the car was to be dropped off so that the service centre could test the injectors cold and also spend time checking for algae in the fuel tanks and debris and rust in the fuel system. I was told that the cost of such checks would be to my account and not covered by extended warranty. I was also told that only defective parts would be replaced if warranty was granted. As you can imagine that didn't brighten my day, nor theirs much after my response. I made it clear that should anything be found that meant warranty was refused then work was to stop and the car returned to me unrepaired with a letter outlining the investigation results and why the warranty claim was to be denied. I would then have the engine repaired elsewhere and pursue my claim for costs against the relevant party.

The car was dropped off as required and this time we spoke with the Service Manager who told my wife and me that he had checked the VIN and that because my D4D wasn't fitted with "DLC" injectors from the factory Toyota Extra Care (extended warranty) would replace all superseded parts (injectors, supports, seals etc etc) with the latest parts provided the fuel system was clean and filter changes had been done in accordance with the book. As I have been only buying my fuel from a major retailer and had the fuel filters changed at more frequent intervals that required there was no issue and my D4D was fitted with a full set of new parts at no cost to me.

I picked the car up this morning and it sounds no different than before. It is not quieter nor idles any smoother. I have already mentioned that I had no symptoms of smoke or vibration or increased fuel consumption etc. So if I hadn't asked for the injector feedback values to be checked there would have been no indicaton that two injectors were out of tolerance.

I will not speculate on whether the two worn injectors would have lead to catastrophic failure in the short or long term or even what the cause was. I do think though that there is more than one issue here. The leaking seals is a definate as there is ample evidence of that causing the problems as outlined by Skywalkerrun but I also think for those who have pre "DLC" injectors fitted there is a concern about the suitability for long term service of those injectors. There is also evidence that any of the injectors have problems and it is not restricted just to 1 and 3 (mine were 2 and 4).

My experience tells me this. Make sure that you change the filters at least as often as Toyota recommends and I would suggest even twice as often as that is not a big price to pay. Ask the mechanic to inspect the old filter element for debris. Buy fuel from a main stream supplier who has good turn over of diesel. And make sure you ask for the injector feedback values to be checked every 40,000km when the service centre has the car cold for valve clearance checks. At that time ask for the area around the injectors to be inspected looking for evidence of blow-by. Also ask the service guys to regularly check for build up on the oil suction screen after draining the oil. If you want to fit a catch can, extra fuel filter or move the intercooler then that is your prerogative. I know there are people who have no choice but to buy fuel on occasion from Dodgy Brothers and in that case maybe the second filter is a smart move, that is an issue between you and Toyota.

Obviously I am pleased with the outcome, I have a whole new injector system at no cost to me. I have already made the decision to sell the 120 and I can pass it on in the knowledge that there is no immediate threat of the engine turning into a hand grenade (if there ever was). I can only express my thanks for the professional way the matter was finally dealt with by Sci-Fleet at Kedron.

Michael

[SWR Banned Find all posts View Profile Close SWR]

Hi Guys
Some prick-e-l-y thoughts! And only thoughts they are!
+++
"Firstly".. In a so to speak manner!.. "Maybe".. "All for one and one for all" speaks volumes!... Maybe that's why the UK/Ireland/France/Spain & NZ got results on the recall campaign concerning the injector seating washers and Australia didn't?.... I just don't know?... I believe our aquiverlant in Australia on fair trade and safety is the ACCC and fair trading!... I think?..
+++++
I think? (IMHO) that there is more than one problem here!.. Maybe? EG:.. "To every action there will be a reaction!".... Only problem here is that i believe the injector seating washers cause one known problem EG: Fouled pick=up pipe etc. and as everything gets hot and starved of oil etc. then the inevitable may follow if not picked up early enough.. But this is only my opinion so i could very well be wrong!... It's just me beat how Europe gets a recall campaign and Australia doesn't?... Maybe we are lacking the numbers down here in Aussie land for support and not shouting loud enough? lol
+++++
The other action that may be triggered by the first action (Failed seating washers) a loan may well be the case? IMHO! EG: The issue of the ECU trying to balance out the injector variables due to what=ever cylinder drops in power first, EG: No:1 x cylinder drops in compression based on the seating washers leaking pressure from the combustion chamber, you might have the ECU (from the first reaction of seating washer failure) trying to put the injector feed back variables back in=line based on injector variable feed back values. EG: Firing order 1=3=4=2!... EG: No:1 cylinder drops in power (For what ever reason) so No:3 cylinder works harder to try and compensate Cylinder No:1 or if Cylinder No:4 drops in power (for what ever reason) then Cylinder then No:2 has to work harder to compensate Cyl No:4 and so on!.. maybe depending on which seating washer blows first?.... Given the EGR setup i can't stop thinking that No:1 Cylinder is more venerable to extra heat exposure?
+++++
The question is! (Given that i didn't map or programme the ECU so don't know) Does the ECU put more fuel into the dragging cylinder at first and when the ECU sees no desired response (Crank angle sensor/Accelerator Pedal position/RPM etc. not responding as per call=up maps!, does the next inline cylinder get more fuel then generate more heat!.. hence the hole in one piston due to extreme hot spot and the other piston caused to crack with the hydraulic affect loading of the cylinder due to over fuelling?... I am not qualified to that level to answer that theory really?... Just brain storming!!
+++++
"CONCLUSION".. Learn to identify the early warning signs and i believe all of the above can be avoided!.. It just all sounds bizzar and beyond me that when Toyota Australia/Japan already knows about the injector seating washers so Why don't they do a recall like in all the country's?.. Maybe its those been counters fault based on action's of complaint put forward in the write places! Lol
+++++
When you consider how many 1KD donk's that are out there world wide since 2002 to 2013 in all those Prado 90/120/150 and hiace vans etc. then obviously the fail rate of the actual engine is actually miniscule in actual engine unit numbers Vs fail rate!.. Block and heads identical but general peripherals change over the years as technology and emissions laws moves forward but basically the same cylinder block & head remain the same!
+++++
Maybe if it could be proven that the injector seating washer could cause harm to others or death!.. would it then be considered as an act for health and safety backed by the ACCC.
+++++
EG: Doing 110kmh in peak hour and engine fails without warning/loss of control of the vehicle accurse then many other cars are involved as you loose control that could cause carnage or harm to others?.. Or even worse! If there is ever such a thing? Your pulling a trailer and 8 passengers in the 120 series or 7 passengers in the 150 series... Would that increase the odds to human safety?
+++++
Cheers