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Toyota Feedback-Injector seal leak= screen clogging=Engine failure

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  • Toyota Feedback-Injector seal leak= screen clogging=Engine failure

    Guys some important feedback regarding Injector seal leaks that can lead to Oil pickup Screen clogging & engine Failure.

    I have been recently advised by a Toyota representative that in Australia, as is the case in New Zealand, It is a requirement that service agents "must" change Injector seals at every Tappet clearance check Interval. Apparently they say this is a documented procedure since Toyota advise to effect the tappet clearance check, the Injectors "must" be removed, and the seals then replaced.

    I am not sure exactly when this requirement entered into the normal procedural documentation and process. Comment Please?

    In Australia, the Tappet clearance check is at every 40,000 KLM, as opposed to NZ which is every 45,000 kLM.

    I would imagine then that since the SIlver plated washers replaced raw copper, with a part number change, from 11176-30011 from the superseded 11176-3010, and have been in use since Early 2008,

    Then if you find copper washers on your injectors in these later years, then it is an indicative sign that these have not been replaced according to Toyota noted procedures they refer to, or that they have been replaced with inferior superseded Unplated silver finish inventory?

    In this case if you have had an engine problem or failure, and it is related to an Injector leak, like the Oil pickup clogging issue, and it appears your seals have not been changed, (colour being one indicator) then it stands to reason your vehicle was may not have been serviced according to what Toyota state is their standard service procedure. If so, and if was performed by an authorised service agent, you may have a claim back to the service agent according to this stated position on a potentially very expensive problem.

    I would value feedback from Owners & service agents in respect to their opinion on this stated position, and as the wether they feel this is correct, and that These Toyota requirements are valid.

    Looking at the current service procedures for tappet clearance checks, it does specify seal replacement. Have Toyota made this clear enough? I would ask people to comment.

    Landuser

  • #2
    You are being fed a lot of Bull$hit there Landuser. If TMC are now saying the seals are required to be changed out at 40k, then they have made that up recently in response to consumer concerns, and failures of the part. It has never been a requirement, and they are just playing political catchup.
    2008 Diesel Prado with extra stuff added. I drive it on the road and other places too.

    Comment


    • #3
      Got to agree with Davros, I spoke to the service manager where I get the Prado serviced and he knew nothing about this or the European or NZ Service bulletins. He wasn't aware the seals had changed either. I was going to print out some pics and the bulletins and let him have a look next time I am over that way.
      My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic

      Comment


      • #4
        so does this mean that if i discover that the seals are still the old ones on my Oct06 prado and i now have the injector issue, that i have a claim for replacement costs? or is it a different issue altogether? cheers (a little unclear as to how the 2 relate)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mcfisherclan View Post
          so does this mean that if i discover that the seals are still the old ones on my Oct06 prado and i now have the injector issue, that i have a claim for replacement costs? or is it a different issue altogether? cheers (a little unclear as to how the 2 relate)
          Hi Mcfisher,

          Toyota have advised me, the seals should be changed every 40,000KLM. So if they have not been changed at these intervals, then we would assume they woud say that they would need to be replaced ASAP. If signs of a leak ares discovered at this time, then it would be highly advised to have your oil pickup screen be urgently inspected for contamination build up that can ultimately starve your engine of oil and destroy it.

          Check the recent Thread contribution by Davros, "Injector Oil seals" with pics of a clogged screen on a 95,000KLM vehicle

          I hope this helps join the dots Injector seal leak=clogged screen=engine failure

          Check with Toyota if they feel you have some claim, many now are.

          Landuser

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Davros View Post
            You are being fed a lot of Bull$hit there Landuser. If TMC are now saying the seals are required to be changed out at 40k, then they have made that up recently in response to consumer concerns, and failures of the part. It has never been a requirement, and they are just playing political catchup.
            G'day Davros,

            Yep this is definately what they are saying. Thanks for your thought and feedback on this and yes, I tend to agree that the blame is being quickly pushed down the line.

            I think they need to jump into the trenches with help get some clearly defined strategies and service recommendations on how to deal with this problem. Its all very obscure to me, and this is absurd when the problem has been elevated to such a high degree in other markets.

            Thanks, and sorry if the Toyota feedback is alarming.

            Landuser

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by mjrandom View Post
              Got to agree with Davros, I spoke to the service manager where I get the Prado serviced and he knew nothing about this or the European or NZ Service bulletins. He wasn't aware the seals had changed either. I was going to print out some pics and the bulletins and let him have a look next time I am over that way.
              Hi MJRandom, Please don't shoot the messager, I particualrly don't dig how this is being handled either.
              But if some clear evidence shows that what they are indicating is not normal operating proceedure, like an older printed proceedure tappet check dated to these 06-08 vehicles, then, it would need to be shown that Toyota made it clear to all that the updated material they no doubt refer to was particularly relevent and directed to these vehicle build dates, and service agents were made fully aware of this.

              It would be great to see what your service manger thinks.

              Landuser

              Comment


              • #8
                Landuser wasn't shooting the messenger just letting you know what I found out during a very recent conversation with my service guy. I will print out the relevant stuff (nothing from PP) and take it over for him to browse. As I have mentioned before I trust this guy, he is open and honest and when others were denying an injector problem he came straight out and told me how many D4Ds had been done.
                My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic

                Comment


                • #9
                  MJ says "he came straight out and told me how many D4Ds had been done"

                  Originally posted by mjrandom View Post
                  Landuser wasn't shooting the messenger just letting you know what I found out during a very recent conversation with my service guy. I will print out the relevant stuff (nothing from PP) and take it over for him to browse. As I have mentioned before I trust this guy, he is open and honest and when others were denying an injector problem he came straight out and told me how many D4Ds had been done.
                  Thanks MJ,

                  What we have to do is have Toyota give us a firm acknowledgement case by case as they are presented, This way they will see just "how many D4Ds had been done." without this it would appear they have no real record of the extent of these problems, since I am being told they just have no evidence that this is an issue.
                  If they have a proper record of the complaints, then I think they will quickly see this is a problem.

                  Landuser

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Can someone clarify whether the injector seal leakage also causes the injectors to fail, or is that a separate problem altogether? Had all 4 injectors replaced last week at huge cost (out of wty claim denied by Toyota), plus the seals, but they wouldn't check the oil strainer as they said there was no need despite my requests to do so -am now going elsewhere to get it checked but would like to know if there is a link between the 2 problems.
                    Thanks
                    Mullos

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mullos View Post
                      Can someone clarify whether the injector seal leakage also causes the injectors to fail, or is that a separate problem altogether? Had all 4 injectors replaced last week at huge cost (out of wty claim denied by Toyota), plus the seals, but they wouldn't check the oil strainer as they said there was no need despite my requests to do so -am now going elsewhere to get it checked but would like to know if there is a link between the 2 problems.
                      Thanks
                      Mullos
                      I would like this answered as well. Does leaking injector seals and replacement of injectors due to the "death rattle" are the same things?

                      If so it means 09 plated 120 series d4d should have the new seals from factory hence will not have this problem, is that correct?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pjorek View Post
                        I would like this answered as well. Does leaking injector seals and replacement of injectors due to the "death rattle" are the same things?

                        If so it means 09 plated 120 series d4d should have the new seals from factory hence will not have this problem, is that correct?
                        I don't think anyone can be 100% sure they have the newer seals. Like I said before, I have seen a 8/2010 1kd with the older design seals in place.

                        When I did my seals last year, I also said that I believe the "death ratlle" issue could well be related to the seals as well. Maybe not in all cases, but it certainly was in my case. The injector that had the major seal failure, was the injector that also failed, and was replaced.
                        The ecu also compensates for a under performing injector, buy supplying more fuel to the injectors that are working within spec. This may be the cause of the rattling, with those injectors being over fueled. The seal issue often corrects itself when the engine warms up, due to expansion around the seal area, which adds further to the argument.

                        The above is purely speculation though. I know there is plenty of money being made at the moment with shops replacing all injectors as a matter of course, which obviously fixes the seal issue. I am not confident that replacing all of them is the best way to go though, when considering the high costs involved.

                        To answer your question.... it is more likely the death rattle and seal issues are related in some cases, and may be that some independant injector failures are clouding the issue as well.

                        Honestly, this really should not be for the consumers or bulletin board users to solve the engineering issues here. It should be TMC that gets it act together and sorts out the problem once and for all.

                        I also think that a redesign of the injector tip may be in order. It wouldn't be that difficult for Denso to remodel the tip (which is a separate screw on component part) so that the seal faces are much larger, giving the seal material more bearing. I am not an engineer though. I realise that the seal does need to crush to form a positive seal. Maybe this is why they have designed the tip the way they have??

                        I am not fussed about the longevity of my engine. I have the skills and knowledge to closely monitor the issue, and act when neccessary to avoid any big drama. I also enjoy looking after my vehicles in this way. (weird hey!)
                        Not many people in TMC consumer land have the luxury that I and some others have, in the resources at our diposal..

                        I agree with Roo. I bet there is a major redesign of the system with the next engine model developed.
                        2008 Diesel Prado with extra stuff added. I drive it on the road and other places too.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Makes the diesel vs petrol look better for petrol all the time with the newer style common rail and direct injection diesels losing the reliability and longevity they were known for, they even seem to be more problematic now then petrol. It is not only Toyota though I have aquantices with Navaras with clutch and injector issues, and one (the only person I know who has one) who has a VW with new injectors at 40000k.

                          Gotta love my 200 killerwasps, See ya on the tracks, Richo.
                          [B]Former [/B]Party Leader, [B]Now[/B] SDO SEQLD GTG 2015 PFA (Pradopoint Fairy Advisor)
                          [B]Bitumen - A Blatant Waste of Taxpayers Money[/B]

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks Davros, could you link me to the page with your oil sump blockage problem? I cannot find it.

                            Even though I have a 2009 d4d 120 series and havent heard the rattle I think it would be a good idea to inspect the sump pick up line whenever possible?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Mullos says "they wouldn't check the oil strainer"

                              Originally posted by Mullos View Post
                              Can someone clarify whether the injector seal leakage also causes the injectors to fail, or is that a separate problem altogether? Had all 4 injectors replaced last week at huge cost (out of wty claim denied by Toyota), plus the seals, but they wouldn't check the oil strainer as they said there was no need despite my requests to do so -am now going elsewhere to get it checked but would like to know if there is a link between the 2 problems.
                              Thanks
                              Mullos
                              Hi Mullos, I would insist that the Toyota dealer check your screen, It is not hard to do, and they can take a pic for you to show its clear using their Otek scope. Now if its dirty, I would demand they put a case to Toyota, then just keep chasing them, a few are starting to do this now. This might end up with a valid claim of seal change, labour and sump clean. But you have to push this through the dealer & Toyota customer experience if you find issues.
                              This is the only way this will be pushed to some major action via TMC. Don't allow them to deflect you elsewhere, then its not their problem any more.

                              P.S. Also ask them if their was signs of an injecotr leak to start with, ie/ carbon blow by around the injector lance.

                              Landuser

                              Comment

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