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  • Serious problem in Europe

    Dear all,
    here in Europe a serious problem is taking away the sleep to the kdj120/125 owners...
    Many faulty injectors are causing engine failure, all over Europe.
    what about Australian models?
    please have a look to what happened in Spain: http://foro.kdjoteros.com/general-f2/topic2848.html
    and what Toyota answers after 3 yearhttp://foro.kdjoteros.com/general-f2...es-t18554.html
    it would be interesting to compare the experience of australian customers and ours..
    waiting for it, ciao!

  • #2
    Re: Serious problem in Europe

    And for the few here that struggle with Spanish.......
    Courtesy of Google translate.

    Good morning,

    After meeting with Toyota Spain, last Thursday, June 1, 2006, we went to report the points that were discussed there.

    The meeting took place at Toyota's headquarters in Madrid Spain.

    Among the attendees were Mr. Fonseca, vice president of Toyota Spain, the Director of Customer Support Center, the Director of the Technical Department of Toyota Spain, and a Quality Engineer TMME (Toyota Europe), among others.
    As you know, on behalf of Albert attended KDJoteros Call (ACR0474) and Sergio García (Sergigg).

    The topic will restrict myself exclusively to the letter sent by KDJoteros and signed by a specific number of users, referring to incidents that occurred with KDJ nozzles.


    Background

    At a first glance, Toyota we discussed the current situation in which, the brand continues to investigate the specific reason for which the nozzles are clogged, having as a main problem analysis, the precipitation of sodium carboxylate in the admission of the nozzle caused by excessive acidity of some of the fuel delivered in the peninsula.


    Chronology of events

    April 2005. Toyota Spain reported the first cases to TMC (Toyota Japan)

    July 2005 - October 2005. TMC recognizes the problem and collect fuel samples for analysis. Have sent more than 1000 liters of fuel to Japan.

    February 2006. Denso injectors interim delivers new, more tolerant to precipitation of sodium carboxylate.


    Current status and commitment to Toyota

    Toyota Spain undertakes to:

    - Replacement of the 4 nozzles, where the values are outside the parameters regardless of the number of faulty injectors. The replacement will be made by the new upgraded injectors.

    - It ensures safety stock so that the change is made in the most flexible as possible.

    - Complimentary car by Toyota.

    - To find the ultimate solution, Toyota Spain, replaced the injectors yet been damaged vehicle out of its warranty period.

    - Having found the solution to the problem, Toyota Spain will again its 3-year warranty on parts replaced.


    Some recommendations

    - Do not rush the fuel tank

    - Use of service stations selectively

    - Store fuel tickets, to deliver at the dealership to a failure of the injectors.


    Sincerely,
    KDJoteros.com
    2008 Diesel Prado with extra stuff added. I drive it on the road and other places too.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Serious problem in Europe

      hi guys,thanks for answers.
      it's sad to hear that the problem affects your cars too.
      most of us european owners of kdj, equip the cars with a complementary fuel filter, Racor or similar, to minimize risk, but we begin to record some engine failures to motors with double filtration too.
      sure, the fuel quality, play a key role in it, but is now clear that the injectors mounted on our kdj, are not indicated to do a great work with common rail engine.
      to be honest, most of failures, there have been in model year from 2003 to 2006, and probably this could confirm the better quality of new injectors respect to the oldest.
      anyway, just to get a complete overview of the situation, here find the Italian majority companies diesel technical data of percentage of cetane :
      Total "Excellium"-->51

      Agip "Blue Tech"-->52

      Q8 "Hi-Q Diesel"-->53

      Esso" E-Diesel"-->53

      Erg "Diesel ONE"-->55

      API (IP) "OROdiesel"-->55.

      Tamoil "Ecoplus"--> 55/57

      Shell "V-Power Diesel" con GTL--> 57/58

      wait for comments, ciao.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Serious problem in Europe

        ciao.
        unfortunetly i have no news from UK and germany, but believe will not be difficult to discover something....will try to ask on-line...
        regarding Spain, i beleive no actions have been started yet, 'cause the parts are looking for a friendly negotiations.
        they got 2 meeting yet, and lots of cars have been repaired under warranty.
        right here in Italy this is the situation:
        http://www.landcruiser-italia.org/vi...t=2233&start=0
        http://www.landcruiser-italia.org/vi...php?f=7&t=4590
        it would be nice if you will register in our web site and come to explain us how Toyota Au, is behaving regarding the problem..
        i believe an opinion exchange could provide to each of us some interesting info, to compare for future actions.
        waiting for that . ciao

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Serious problem in Europe

          ciao,
          as a result of injectors malfunction, we register various types of damages: it goes from the simple replacing of injectors, to a complete replace of 1KD!
          it all depends on how timely is the analysis of issue.... some of us got the solution very fast, replacing (under waaranty in some cases) one or more injectors, others saw their car die during a trip...
          we have heard of : power loss, hard knocking coming from the hood (is it the correct name? ops: ), up to cylinder explosion, caused from the uncorrect fuel injection.
          faulty injectors, release fuel not enough vaporized, causing orrible damages to the system.
          probable issue causes (my opinion):
          -poor construction quality of the components
          -scarsity of lubrificant in the fuel ( i use not "green power diesel", to compensate)
          -egr and catalyst put back in the system, substances harmful for common rail.
          unfortunetly, is very difficult to link cases together being very different the using condition of the vehicles, so Toyota can simply deny that a generelaized issue exists.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Serious problem in Europe

            This topic will be one I follow with interest. I think Toyota have a serious problem on their hands. :shock:

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Serious problem in Europe

              Sure have, and I will be keeping my 1KZ old banger until it is rectified, or, buy another brand or go back to petrol ops: ops:
              John

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Serious problem in Europe

                had a look around in UK's Land cruiser forum, but just one case is on discussion. no civil action vs Toyota are on course in UK.
                in the meantime, injections failure continue in Italy, expecially among 2003-2006 styles.
                do you have news about possibility of replacing the Denso injectors with different brand ? anyone of you did it? :roll:

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Serious problem in Europe

                  yes, I know. everything 'began after the meeting in Spain between Toyota and some members of the forum KDJoteros.
                  but, apparently even these new injectors are safe.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Serious problem in Europe

                    Originally posted by Talktheroo
                    Hey, I am no engineer, but it would seem that the tolerances are that critical on the fuel system that Denso through Bosch has designed the system above and beyond the fuel that can be produced at present being of a fine filtered, refined diesel grade without any impurities in it. Would you agree with this comment?
                    :roll: i don't think so.
                    it really would be a mistake for amateurs.....i think the problem is in quality construction of components..

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Serious problem in Europe

                      Without knowing the details I would suspect it is a design/material selection problem exacerbated by the range in cetane ratings (different burn characteristics) and impurities contaminating the nozzles. Lower cetane ratings mean the fuel burns closer to the tip so the heat of combustion may be bringing about some material treatment changes such as softening the tips which means increased wear. Injector tips wear just with diesel being forced through them let alone anything else. Water and other junk can corrode the components as much as erode. Additives and contaminants can also change the combustion properties of the fuel. It looked as though we had our first 150 series with injector problems but maybe not now. I doubt whether it is a simple filtration problem. Assuming the factory filter is 2um and the fuel is clean of water and the filter is sound there shouldn't be an issue with contamination but I believe there are a few failures still with this scenario. Happy to be corrected.
                      My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Serious problem in Europe

                        Hmmm wrote a reply that disappeared into the ether. Ah well attempt #2.

                        Firstly don't label all Chinese foundries the same. Sure you need to keep inspections and QA first class but the quality is available in the foundries and fabricators. Anyway back on track. I think it is a material problem. Probably exacerbated by the fuel quality. If the engine was really designed to run 50+ cetane then it is likely the engine will detonate with lower cetane rated fuels. Much the same as pinging in petrol engines. Don't know if there is such a thing as a knock sensor for a diesel because that is how diesels work. I would like to see the evolution of the injector. I am guessing the latest injectors here are the same as those in Europe but perhaps the early European weren't up to scratch even for high cetane fuels; as it seems the early D4D injectors here were not fit for purpose and I think I have them!!!! If there is a problem with the 150s we probably wont see it until next winter. Hoepfully for all concerned the problem is solved.

                        As for me I have a Toyota fleet lease and the fuel card is with Caltex! I know exactly where the fuel has been bought which is a positive. I have had the engine bay fuel filter replaced at every service from about 20k on. I have extended the warranty and will probably sell the 120 before that expires which is not what I expected to do 3 years ago, I kept the 90 for 7+ years before I bought the 120 and there was nothing fundamentally wrong with it when I sold it, just needed tyres and suspension and some TLC to redress the bush work. Whether I buy a 150 will depend on how the D4D ages, hoepfully there will a V6TD by then but probably not. And I have to come to grips with the aesthetics...
                        My 150 build - http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?27423-A-Random-approach-to-a-Bluestorm-150-GXL-D4D-automatic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Serious problem in Europe

                          hi all,
                          i dont think the engine was engineered to work with low or high cetane level...
                          Toyota's veichels work all around the world so must engineered to work with all diesel types... as per this i never use a green diesel, but standard one, until now, and touching wood, have had no issues until now on this...
                          more simply i think there was a problem in production process like wrong materials or bad workers on production lines...( me too, unfortunetly work with chineese for jewels production, and ensure you they are really bad workers, and lots of goods must to be repaire after receivement....)
                          Chinese factories have a big problem in getting workers with specific profesionalism, because they move around country, following more incoming and changing often their work: for example is really easy meeting right there, workers in jewellery factory that made toys the week before, in other country side! :shock:

                          so, in my opinion, Toyota and most of other car Brand, shoul raise the quality control of components from china, and possibly get better training to their product managers as well...
                          hope to be denied, but the problems encountered by the new 150, it doesn't offer great hope......

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Serious problem in Europe

                            Could the problems around the globe be due to Ultra-Low-Sulphur-Diesel (ULSD)? For a long time now, there's been a lot of folks supporting the notion of adding small amounts of two stroke oil to their fuel (very small dose of 200:1) to supplement the lubricity of the fuel, and there's been a lot of debate raging on about why this is a bad idea. But now as many 120 Series diesel Prados have racked up the mileage over the passing of time, and these injector issues are popping up in Australia and Europe, are those people who have been using 2 stroke oil equally affected?

                            We have now established that cetane levels are not the issue, based on the information provided, as European diesel fuel certainly seems to be of higher cetane values than what is supplied by Australian fuel vendors.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Serious problem in Europe

                              Originally posted by lawrance
                              Could the problems around the globe be due to Ultra-Low-Sulphur-Diesel (ULSD)? For a long time now, there's been a lot of folks supporting the notion of adding small amounts of two stroke oil to their fuel (very small dose of 200:1) to supplement the lubricity of the fuel, and there's been a lot of debate raging on about why this is a bad idea. But now as many 120 Series diesel Prados have racked up the mileage over the passing of time, and these injector issues are popping up in Australia and Europe, are those people who have been using 2 stroke oil equally affected?

                              We have now established that cetane levels are not the issue, based on the information provided, as European diesel fuel certainly seems to be of higher cetane values than what is supplied by Australian fuel vendors.
                              I totally agree. I must however point out that in our club, there is someone who broke the engine while having a very well controlled car and often used vegetable oil as an additive for fuel.
                              so it's a real mystery..

                              Comment

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