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Injector and Injector Pump Failure less than 12mths old

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  • Injector and Injector Pump Failure less than 12mths old

    I have been driving a 150 GXL wagon since February last year. This was from new and is a Govt agency fleet vehicle. It has just clocked 59'000ks, with by the book servicing. View my review of the vehicle early in the piece. http://www.pradopoint.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=8224

    On Sunday I was heading home from the sth coast when the engine lost all power. I pulled over to the side of the road and the engine stalled. I was able to re-start the vehicle (with a bellowing cloud of smoke) and I thought my teeth were going to be rattled out with the rough idle. The vehicle wouldn't pull up a slight incline to get me to a side track, so I put it into low range and was able to get to the track...ever so slowly. I arranged a tow & had the vehicle delivered to the local Toyota service centre.

    The fault has been identified as a 'dead' 3rd cylinder injector & the fuel pump needs replacing also. The total cost being around $4,500. I have been advised by the Toyota service centre that Toyota will not warrant this, claiming it is a result of dirty fuel!! I have a Caltex fuel card and only get fuel from Caltex service stations!

    This is an alarming response from Toyota and has serious implications for all Toyota diesel drivers, not just diesel Prado drivers. Also, it demonstrates Toyota's lack of recognition of customer loyalty, considering the customer in this instance. If this is how a major fleet buyer is treated, what hope is there for Joe Average?

    I have a number of questions that you may be able to help me with:

    1. Since the service book is in the vehicle and not with me, can anyone tell me if there is any sort of fuel system flush or similar in the servicing schedule between new and the 50k service?
    2. Has anyone else experienced this situation or know of anyone who has? If so, how was it resolved?
    3. I would have thought if the fuel was dirty enough to stuff the pump and one injector, then all injectors would have been stuffed. Can anyone with knowledge of diesel engines comment on this?

    Thanks for your help...and be warned.

  • #2
    Injector and Fuel Pump Failure less than 12mths old

    No expert here but there was a recent discussion on an AM radio regarding water in fuel from service stations. The general consensus was if you think you have purchased dirty fuel, request that the petrol station have their fuel tested and if it's found to be dirty then they are liable to pay for the damaged caused. Do you know which station would have sold you the dirty fuel? May be an option if it wasn't too long ago that you filled up.

    Did Toyota take a fuel sample? They must have to rule against warranty. Get them to provide the results so you can take action against the service station. If they didn't take a sample then the balls back in their court I would have thought.
    150 GXL V6 Auto. BFG AT 275/65/R17, ARB Deluxe Winch Bar, OME 2" Lift, Firestone Airbags, Dual Batteries, GME UHF, Rhino Sportz Crossrails and Platform Rack, ARB Awning, Redarc Brake Controller, Rear Drawer System, Safari Snorkel, New Toyota Mudflaps, Kaymar 'Wheel on Door' Bracket, ARB Under Vehicle Protection, IPF 900XS Spotties, Allied Hammer Wheels. Disclaimer - I am an ARB employee. [B][URL="http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?17348-Sam-s-150-V6"]Buildup Thread[/URL][/B]

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    • #3
      Re: Injector and Fuel Pump Failure less than 12mths old

      This is an alarming response from Toyota and has serious implications for all Toyota diesel drivers, not just diesel Prado drivers. Also, it demonstrates Toyota's lack of recognition of customer loyalty, considering the customer in this instance. If this is how a major fleet buyer is treated, what hope is there for Joe Average?
      Not just Toyota drivers. All manufacturers of common rail diesels are taking this line and it's not just effecting 4wd owners.


      Mick
      [CENTER][B][I][SIZE=1][COLOR=blue]1KZ-TE Turbo Diesel, 5 speed manual, 3.5 inch lift, 265/70/17 Mickey Thompson MTZ, D-Tronic chip, Boost controller, mandrel exhaust, dump pipe, modified intake, ARB steel bar, Magnum winch, Safari snorkel, rear drawers, half cargo barrier, dual batteries, Uniden UHF, Sat Nav, reverse camera, Magellan XL , Tjm bash plates, ARB alloy roof rack, rear telescopic work light and numerous other modifications!!!
      Now with 3BAR MAP sensor & 18PSI Boost![/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][/B][/CENTER]

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      • #4
        Re: Injector and Fuel Pump Failure less than 12mths old

        My personal opinion...

        If a service station is selling fuel which is out of specification for sale in Aus and it causes an engine problem, its perfectly ok for a manufacturer to not have to foot the bill.
        But, this puts people in a really difficult position. I would prefer to see some sort of arrangement, like comprehensive insurance, where the manufacturer fixes it then chases down the fuel supplier to get reimbursed. The fuel suppliers might get a bit more cautious about their fuel quality if they knew, Toyota, Ford, Holden etc were going to lean on them.

        D
        2004 GX TD; Some extra stuff... and a big wish list...

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        • #5
          Re: Injector and Fuel Pump Failure less than 12mths old

          Interesting points raised.

          I filled up (from around 1/4 tank) on Saturday a'noon. Probably traveled no more than 60-80ks when the problem arose! A check of the odo and may fuel receipt will tell exactly.

          Update

          After speaking with the Toyota service centre, Toyota Warranty mob claim that this problem has been caused by 'accumulated' crap in the fuel system. The Tojo techo said that the build up is average for kilometres traveled, so go figure. Apparently there is a filter between the 2 tanks which is scheduled for replacement at 80ks, and a fuel filter under the bonnet which used to be replaced at 30ks but is now replaced when the idiot light on the dash comes on. When I said to the techo that it appears this part and the system did not do its job, he agreed.

          Now Toyota want all 4 injectors changed and the injector pump, but aren't willing to pay for any of it! Not bad hey? Parts alone around $3,500. I get the feeling this has got a way to go yet.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Injector and Injector Pump Failure less than 12mths old

            If the warning light did not do its job and warn of excess dirt in the system then the problem must belong to Toyota. I don't see how they can refuse your claim if the product is faulty. Write a big sign and place it inside your vehicle and park it outside the Toyota dealership for a few days. :twisted:
            Good Luck
            Tezza

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            • #7
              Re: Injector and Injector Pump Failure less than 12mths old

              The warning light should only come on if there is a build up of water, as water settles in the bottom of the filter and diesel floats on top. If the problem is dirt or contaminants other than water the light will not illuminate. We have had quite a few toyota common rail diesel need replacement injection pumps and injectors replaced here, incidently majority of these vehicles had fuel filters changed every 10000kms. After checking service book filters should have been changed at 120000km, common rails are using a much finer filter than the older diesels and have tighter tolerances; hence even the smallest amount of debris entering the system can have major implications.

              Batto.
              [url=http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?26874-Batto-s-120-Build]2007 D4D GX[/url]
              [url=http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=25018.msg386484#msg386484]2012 Challenge Outback Deluxe[/url]

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              • #8
                Re: Injector and Injector Pump Failure less than 12mths old

                Hi Hoges

                If contaminants have damaged the system then the problem is not the responsibility of Toyota. That belongs to the operator of the vehicle and in turn whoever sold them the fuel. Just because you use a 'name' brand does not prevent this happening. We had contaminated fuel damage a couple of vehicles on fleet after filling up at another name brand servo. We have a quality agreement with the servo chain that they will warrant the fuel and they covered the repairs. Mind you the fleet fuel bill would be large.

                Are you footing the bill for this or is the agency you are working for?

                If its you then I would look at going to the small claims court for the matter to be determined. It will cost you a small lodgement fee. You dont need a solicitor to represent you. But dont tell Toyota you will be doing this. Spring it on them a bit down the track. This way they wont prepare themselves for it.

                If you havent already done so speak with the owner/manager of the servo about the issue and that Toyota states it had contaminated fuel. See what they say. They may be prepared to give you a letter stating that the fuel was not contaminated. IF they dont then go to head office with lots of threats about the media etc. They should write to you to say there was no contamination of their fuel. Good for court.

                Submit your matter for court and turn up with your service history, letter from the servo company and your receipts for the fuel.

                Toyota will need to prove that the fuel was contaminated. Can they prove this in court? Do they have a sample taken at the time and shown to you that has been stored in an untamper proof container?

                When you give your evidence you can show that you have done everything expected of a vehicle owner re servicing and Toyota may not be able to produce anything that will prove their case. They may also not want to pay for a solicitor and time off work for the employees.

                IF its a matter for your fleet manager then I would just leave it with them. Unless you need the stress of course.
                2009 120 V6 Auto. 265/70/17 Goodyear Silent Armours. Bilsteins and Kings Springs.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Injector and Injector Pump Failure less than 12mths old

                  If it is a salary sacrified car, leave it with your fleet manager, but ensure it is settled otherwise it may increase your FBT in the long run. Your fleet manager may just foot the bill if he is too busy.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Injector and Injector Pump Failure less than 12mths old

                    Originally posted by Talktheroo
                    All members should be outraged at the Australian federal government, not Toyota. Cetane, cetane and cetane is the problem, or at least in part. Cetane is the measurement used for combustion (ignition), very important point to note. Fuel plays a major part in the make up of the diesel engine system (cycle) and for that matter, it's history when you talk about injection. The D4D (CI) common rail engine is designed around the European standard, EN 4264 (IP 380), 50+ Cetane. The Australian standard is 46 Cetane, yes that's right, 46. This is why European vehicle manufacturers were reluctant to release a number of their diesel models into Australia, eg., VW. You might argue that there is not much difference inbetween 46 and 50-54 cetane, but over a period of 50,000 kms + it becomes critical. This is why VW specifys BP only in their warranty jargen, perhaps Toyota needs to do this as well. BP is the only company in Australia that produces 50+ Cetane that I know of. To Caltex defence, they have been trying to get the Australian index (Cetane) changed and engaging the federal government to do so (50+) as early as 2003. I would rather deal with Caltex as a company than BP, as for what they did in the gulf and you can use your shopping coupons for your discounts, unfortunately, in my opinion, this is not possible at the moment. As far as legals go, you would have to see if Toyota specify 50+ Cetane diesel as their preferred fuel. I don't have my manual with me at the moment as I left it up in Cairns, being posted back to me. If they don't, you have a case and claim against Toyota, Australia. This is one of the reasons why, Toyota Australia replaced the injectors in the early D4D models. It cost them a fortune. Why do Toyota design and produce to the EN standard, well its got to do with the number of vehicles sold, millions in Europe. They may sell 150,000 units in this country if they are lucky, plus it is a good standard to work with. Shell by the way, is only 49 Cetane. The only time I have had water in my fuel, is with Shell, perhaps that's why they call themselves, Shell? Hopefully other members will research this important subject, you will be surprised what you will find. I hope your Prado gets repaired quick and best of luck.
                    How does the cetane rating influence contamination in the fuel?
                    2009 120 V6 Auto. 265/70/17 Goodyear Silent Armours. Bilsteins and Kings Springs.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Injector and Injector Pump Failure less than 12mths old

                      Does anyone no what the new Caltex Vortex diesel is?

                      Here is a quote from their web site:

                      "Caltex Vortex Premium Diesel looks after your car by removing injector tip deposits. This ensures a better quality fuel spray, allowing the fuel to burn more efficiently and completely.

                      You'll use less fuel and that's good for you and good for the environment.

                      With its excellent cleaning ability, Vortex Premium Diesel helps restore engine power output, acceleration and smoothness.

                      Caltex Vortex Premium Diesel is designed with new common rail diesel technology in mind and is ideal for the most advanced turbo-diesel engines.

                      Caltex Vortex Premium Diesel, is designed to make filling up a cleaner more enhanced experience.

                      Caltex Vortex Premium Diesel contains an anti-foam agent that significantly reduces the risk of splashing and reduces the odour that can sometimes be left on your hands when filling."
                      2010 150 Glacier White GXL D4D Auto

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                      • #12
                        Re: Injector and Injector Pump Failure less than 12mths old

                        Just when i think i am ready to get a diesel next changeover i read another story of the d4d self destructing!!!

                        Makes me nervous, however i only ever use BP fuel so that could be a positive.
                        [b]Rob[/b]

                        [b]2016 Toyota Hilux SR5 D4D Auto Company Cruiser... [/b].
                        [url=http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?23866-Hutch-s-2012-150-GXL-V6-petrol-Auto]Hutch's 2012 Build up[/url]
                        [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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                        • #13
                          Re: Injector and Injector Pump Failure less than 12mths old

                          Dear Mr "Talktheoo", to despirately avoid warranty issues and maybe fuel quality fights, I am filling up (as far as humanly possible) at the same local BP (except when on big trips), and keep receipts etc, and I am currently persisting with (tolerating) fixed price dealer services. So, I know they use genuine toyota filters etc, but I am told they exclusively use a "toyota" branded oil.....I just hope its a good oil, because, as Mr Laws told us all years ago, "oils aint oils"....so, for a 150 D4D GXL, and you could choose the best oil you could, for use in south east queensland, (ie almost never subzero temps) in your opinion, oil what would it be? and do you know who makes the "toyota" brand oil :?:
                          SE Qld: GX 150GD Auto, (Feb'16 build): TJM T15 steel b bar, 9,500lb TORQ winch, TJM s steps, Rhino Pioneer Platform (42102B 1928X1236mm), front recovery points, Wynnum towbar, P3 brake controller, TNN Underbody guards, UHF, TREKtable & LED striplight, Custom Fridge & Drawers, Waeco CFX50, 9inch illuminator 160W LED spots, 40mm lifted Dobinson Suspension (Zordo's), ScanguageII, 30 Sec Wing Awning

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                          • #14
                            Re: Injector and Injector Pump Failure less than 12mths old

                            Originally posted by Talktheroo
                            Caltex can only guarantee 46, that is the Australian standard. Rob, the D4Ds are fine as long as you stick to a few principals. Use gen. Toyota filters, fuel and oil. Use a good quality engine oil, Nulon, Penrite, etc., and use a 50+ cetane diesel fuel like BP. Change your fuel filter at least every 10,000 kms, you had to do this with the 1KZ-TE has well. Hopefully I am right as I own one (D4D). I have reached the 11,000 km mark with no rattles yet. I will certainly keep all members posted if I have any trouble with it and hopefully the resolution.
                            Well I'm just under 11,000km and i have only used Caltex Vortex from day 1. So am I just lucky or what? BTW It does not say anything in the manual about having to use 50. I also don't understand why Caltex, if they have been lobbying the govt, aren't doing what BP is and manufacture 50+. As indicated in my previous post, they are definately stating that their Votex Premium Diesel is desinged for modern common rail engines. Surley this makes them liable if there is a problem? How can we be sure that Vortex is only 46 like their normal Diesel....I might call their customer service.
                            2010 150 Glacier White GXL D4D Auto

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Injector and Injector Pump Failure less than 12mths old

                              Caltex state that they manufacture to the Aus standard i.e. minimum 46 (including Vortex Premium) however they also stated that the vast majority of their diesel is in excess of 50 and it really depended whether it was imported as all locally manufactured product was 50+. They also made the point that other manufacturer's (including BP) also use Caltex from time to time and, at best, just add their own 'additives'. I have a very good relationship with my local dealer and the service manager said that they have had a couple of instances of problems and every one of them has been water in the diesel (except one which was petrol). I asked whether I should avoid Caltex and he said no and repeated what Caltex said about other makes using Caltex fuel anyway. He did say that Bio should be avoided which I would take to include blends. The other consensus seems to be to avoid filling up if you see a tanker dumping its load at the servo as it stirs the tanks up and mixes all the dirt and water into the diesel.

                              Edit: Well BP warrants their fuel in writing, here is a link to the warranty http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarti...tentId=7037586. I think I'm going to swap to BP! BTW Shell has a similar warranty, but seemingly not Caltex.
                              2010 150 Glacier White GXL D4D Auto

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